Greg Tirico

October 26, 2020

Episode #314: Third Interview with Mark Koziel

Greg Tirico

October 26, 2020

Ron and Ed are delighted to welcome back Mark Koziel, this time in his new capacity as President and CEO at Allinial Global. Mark is a CPA, CGMA in the U.S. with over 20 years of experience in accounting, management, consulting, and advocacy.

A Bit More About Mark:
Today, Mark Koziel is the President and CEO of Allinial Global. Previously he was Executive Vice President – Firm Services for the American Institute of CPAs. He leads the Private Companies Practice Section (PCPS), Firm Relationship Management, Small Firms, Diversity & Inclusion, Young Member Initiatives, Technical Hotline and Center for Plain English Accounting.

Ed’s Questions: Segment One

Mark, I guess we can also say that you are now once again a fellow of the VeraSage Institute. You were a fellow formally but then your duties at the AICPA precluded you from holding that esteemed title but we kept the spot warm for you.
Mark, let's start here. What have we learned about the accounting profession in 2020? I mean, we could spend the whole show on that, right?
Ron refers to them as the front line, from a business perspective and continue to be. I think it was you who first said that you were having conversations with people as late as February, especially tax partners, who were saying there's no way that I could run my firm remotely and then six weeks later, bang you're all remote, now what?
Well, let's back up a second. Tell us about your new role at Allinial Global. First of all, for those of our listeners who do not know what Allinial Global is, tell us what that is, and then why you're so excited to be a part of it.
So Allinial actually holds the client relationship in a lot of those case. That's interesting. I wasn't aware of that.
Yeah, that does make a lot of sense. Now, where you're going with that. What attracted you to Allinial Global was it the fact that they had some of those things already in place or who were the member firms, that kind of thing?
Well that's great. Well we're definitely want to hear more about that, and I'm glad that the conversations that you're having are even to the point of talking about subscription pricing, huh?
Yeah, they do have to be the right options. That video, and we've had Dan Ariely on the show [Episode #43], is just jaw dropping every time I play it, and people who've seen it for the first time, you can just see their head begin to explode. Like, wait a minute, you actually changed the revenue mix and the profit because of having a choice that nobody picked, really? Really good stuff. So, what's your first hundred days? Well, not quite 100 days yet. Are you still getting your sea legs with it?
Interesting. So I'm curious, from a process standpoint, how did you do that? Did you develop a questionnaire? Or did you just kind of go in freeform and say I'm just going to have a conversation and listen?
I like that. Okay, so their dues are based on their revenue. So what you're saying is, “Hey, I'm going to help you double your revenue. Even better, I'm going to double your revenue and do it profitably, so that you grow profit. And even better, you're going to work less.”

Ron’s Questions: Segment Two

Welcome back everybody. We're here with Mark Koziel, president and CEO Allinial global, and Mark, you’d probably expect a recovering CPA to talk to you about accounting, but I'm not. I want to take you back to a cigar bar in Indianapolis. I think it was when you dropped on me this entrepreneurial leap that you had in mind. And then I think by the time we met the next time, it might have been New York, you had taken that leap. So tell me about your’s and your wife, Maryann's, leap to entrepreneurship [Craft’d].
I bet. Are you able to let people in with masks, social distancing, and all that?
How do you decide which wines to carry?
That has become the new hip thing to do. You know, sports celebrities, actors, used to buy restaurants. Now they buy wineries. I mean, there's I think there's over 300 wineries in Sonoma, and over 600 now in Napa, which is just outrageous when you think about it, every bit of land here is being turned into vineyards. It's just incredible. So tell me what wines you have run across that you love, or that were kind of unexpected or that you didn't know about before?
Yeah, because you did go to Lasseter, Pixar’s John Lasseter. And that's like 15 miles from my house and you liked it. It was a great one, you said
Yeah, there's a lot out here that do the blending. And that is really an art, it’s amazing.
What's your geographical reach? I mean, do you carry wines from around the world? Are there hotspots that are better sellers than others?
Do you guy’s serve food?
Yeah, a lot of people don't want to deal with the health department so they don't even bother serving food. You can't even get hors d’oeuvres or cheese and crackers or something. So probably not you because you're a recovering CPA, but has owning a business changed your perspective at all on the CPA/customer relationship?
Now, would that be Cuban cigars?
That's awesome. So you like being an entrepreneur? It's been fun so far?
What's the virtual wine tastings been like? How is that going? Because that seems weird, but I could see how it could be pretty neat, actually.
Did you do the Sideways tour?
Yeah, that movie killed the sales of Merlot.

Ed’s Questions: Third Segment

And we are back with Mark Koziel with Allinial Global, and Mark before we get back to accounting, I need to ask you just a follow up to Ron's question, does your wife's business have a subscription?
I may have told you this, we had a local restaurant here, it's called Destinations Wine Bar, they do sell food. But how they really have survived through the pandemic is they had wine storage lockers that they had as part of their subscription. So you could store your wine there. And that, you know, people are like, No, that's okay, just leave it there, even though they were closed for a while. Pretty cool idea. So let's talk a little bit about that. The business model changes that you're trying to implement with Allinial Global, subscription obviously, being one of them. What about things like that have really fallen off our radar, like machine learning and AI? Have they gotten to the point where they are just part of what we know, And we're not talking about them because they're embedded? Or were they pushed off because of COVID?
Is there a problem with that? One of the things that I think even Botkeeper got involved with is when you shift stuff overseas, do you have to let the customer know that you're doing that?
So as you've said, you're through about 140, or so, of your member firms, about halfway, is that right? What surprised you with those conversations, did anything take you by surprise, like, wow, I didn't realize that so many firms were here or behind or ahead, anything shocking?
That is really interesting. And is the timesheet, unfortunately, still universal globally as well, or have people getting away from that?
You spurred me on to mention something to you. Ron and I have done a lot of work with the bookkeepers in Canada over the last decade or so. And one of the things that we repeat over and over again, is that we think that the bookkeepers in Canada, first of all, they're far ahead of the bookkeepers in the United States, for whatever reason. In fact, they're even ahead, Ron and I think, of the accountants in the US. What are you seeing with regard to the para-professionals internationally? Are you seeing similar trends like that? Or is it more like Canada or more like the US?
Yeah, that's what's so interesting, the bookkeepers that we've taught in Canada do that same thing, they actually are shifting to advisory, which is pretty amazing, at least the group that we have been working with.
Yeah, we had a great conversation with the Chief Technology Officer of Sage, Aaron Harris [Episode #306], who I know you know, and he was talking about the same thing, that one of the things that we're learning inside Sage from an artificial intelligence standpoint and machine learning standpoint is the leverage that we can take, certainly keeping the data anonymous so that we're not sharing other people's data, But the insights that we're able to get with regard to transactions in the marketplace, and what's happening in the marketplace, is really incredible. The data is like oil, it's becoming almost as worth as much as the actual service itself.
Well, that's great. We're really excited for you, so after you get through this, you're going to put together some kind of a plan to say, and then, you know, here's where you're going to take this long term with Allinial Global, but you’re still in that learning phase. But the next step is to come up with a plan, right?
Well, I really look forward to see what you're going to do with that organization. I had some familiarity with them, did some work before you got on board and really like the firms that I did talk to so really looking forward to the next phase, but we are up against our break already. And Ron's going take you home for the fourth segment. But I want to thank you once again for being on the show and hope to have you back at a future point. I'm sure we will.

Ron’s Questions: Segment Four

Welcome back everybody. We're here with Mark Koziel. And Mark, you've got a worldwide perspective. Have you seen firms in different countries handling the COVID crisis differently or more innovatively? Have you learned anything about how they're dealing with it outside of the US?
Did they make the shift as quick to remote work as a lot of firms here did?
Yeah, I'm hoping the Results Only Work Environment comes out of this crisis as a testable, viable model. But the other thing I wanted to ask you about, given the worldwide view that you have, as you know we have a VeraSage colleague, Tim Williams, from the advertising space, he wrote a great book called Positioning for Professionals. He's a big believer in niching. Really putting your firm in a box, if you will; he likes to say, no box, no strategy. Do you see more of a movement towards niching, I mean, really focusing rather than trying to be all things to all people, and not wanting to turn away any revenue, but really just barreling in and just focusing on one particular industry or demographic or whatever?
You know, I've been using Peter Drucker's famous question about his idea of systematic abandonment. And the question is, “If you weren't in this line of business today, would you enter it? And if not, what are you going to do about it? And that's a really powerful question.
Mark, I have to ask you, and this relies more on your experience with the AICPA, but the Big Four in the UK is facing a split up, a spin-off of their audit and their consulting. The Financial Reporting Council, and the firms, are supposed to issue some reports today on how to do that. How do you see that playing out? And will that come to the USA?
So Mark, we've only got about a minute, or a little over. What advice would you give to a young aspiring CPA?
Excellent. Yeah, I used to joke that who would you notice first, garbageman going on strike or CPAs? And I have to say CPAs would probably be the right answer this year. So Well, Mark, thank you so much. This has been wonderful. We can't wait to have you back and keep doing the great work at Allinial Global.

Bonus Content is Available As Well

Did you know that each week after our live show, Ron and Ed take to the microphone for a bonus show? Typically, this bonus show is an extension of the live show topic (sometimes even with the same guest) and a few other pieces of news, current events, or things that have caught our attention.

Click the “FANATIC” image to learn more about pricing and member benefits.

Greg Tirico

October 18, 2020

Episode #313: Interview with Professor Gary Hamel on His Book Humanocracy

Greg Tirico

October 18, 2020

GARY HAMEL is visiting professor of strategy and entrepreneurship at the London Business School. He has authored twenty articles for the Harvard Business Review and published five books with Harvard Business Review Press, including The Future of Management (2007). The Wall Street Journal ranked Hamel as the world’s most influential business thinker, while the Financial Times labeled him a “management innovator without peer.” He lives in Northern California.

Ron’s Questions: Segment One

Gary, I just finished your book, Humanocracy, shortly after it came out, I got it the day it came out. And I absolutely loved it, as I loved your book, The Future of Management book. So I'm going to ask you the cliche question from a host that makes it sound like he didn't read the book. What is your book about?
Before we dive in, Gary, I just have to ask you this, too. Is this book a logical extension of The Future of Management? Has your thinking kind of evolved over the years?
Because one of the things you say is once a company hits a certain threshold in size, that bureaucracy starts growing faster than the organization itself.
You talk about bureaucracy being a tax on human effort and how we need to get rid of this. And I love that you've quoted the late Carl Deutsch, I think, who observed that “[Power] is the ability to afford not to learn.” And I thought that was great. Are you confident this can be done?
I love this line, you say “America is a country that was invented by geniuses to be run by idiots. Bureaucracies, by contrast, seem to have been designed by idiots to be run by geniuses.” And I just love that because you're right, creativity is not narrowly distributed. Just look at YouTube, and Wikipedia, and Linux.
Excellent. Well, Gary, unfortunately, we're up against our break. This is just flying by. But this is great. Thank you so much.

Ed’s Questions: Segment Two

On The Soul of Enterprise today is Professor Gary Hamel. The book is Humanocracy: Creating Organizations as Amazing as the People Inside of Them. And Gary, I wanted to talk to you a little bit about part three of your book, which is the principles over practice. First of all, talk about why it's important that we look at these companies not so much by their unique practices, but by their belief systems instead.
Ron and I have this saying can you imagine if you ever described your marriage as efficient? How repulsive that would be? I love Ed, he's very efficient. But I want to ask you, there's so many great things in there. But I want to turn your attention to the power of markets and talk a little bit about this, because I think this is quite fascinating. Ron and I, about 10 years ago, came across the notion of the prediction market, and how that could be used inside organizations. And we did a couple of sessions on it. And I’ve got tell you, it fell completely flat. No one knew what the hell we were talking about, like why this would even be a thing. But the experimentation that you've seen, it's starting to work, it's starting to get some uptick, isn't it?
Yeah, that was a pull quote I had from the book as well, that's a great concept.

Ron’s Questions: Third Segment

Welcome back, everybody. We're here with Professor Gary Hamel, the author of Humanocracy. And Gary, one objection I can hear and you actually anticipated this in the book. But I can hear somebody saying “How can you have a unity of purpose without unity of command?” What's your response?
You know, we hear all the time that people hate change, they're fearful of change, they're against change, and you think that's rubbish. You call us change addicts?
Max Planck made that famous remark about progress happens funeral by funeral. Do you think the old guard, the old current command and control will give up the power and allow this change to happen?
It reminds me how the two ladies [Jody Thompson and Cali Ressler] who started the Results-only Work Environment (ROWE) at Best Buy. They just went out and did it. They didn't ask for permission. [Listen to our two episodes with Jody Thompson, #24 and #287].
Al; right, well, like you say, Gary, we created this bureaucracy and we can we can undo it and replace it with something better. Unfortunately, we're up against our next break. Ed is going to take you home during the last segment, Gary, but I just wanted to say thank you. What an honor to be able to chat with you. As a longtime fan, keep up the great work, please. You're needed.

Ed’s Questions: Segment Four

And, folks, while we are doing our best to try to get to some of the great nuggets in Gary Hamel’s book, Humanocracy: Creating Organizations as Amazing as the People Inside Them, we are only scratching the surface. So we really implore you, go buy this book and read it. Don't just buy it, but actually read it, because we think there's some great things that you can do in your organization. I want to turn your attention, Gary, to a subject with regard to the many of the folks who listen to this show. It's more accountants, lawyers, and people in professional services, and even with smaller organizations. What advice do you have for people who are in smaller businesses to avoid some of these traps that the large organizations get ensnared in?
All right, well, we've got about 90 seconds left or so and I wanted to ask you where can people get your book—obviously at Amazon, all that stuff—but where can they learn more about what you're doing?

A Note From Gary Hamel:

So certainly, please follow me on Twitter @profhamel. You can find me on LinkedIn for sure. Humanocracy.com is where you can learn more about the book. And I hasten to add there's a free course there, about four and a half hours. And if there's something you want to ask me, I'm Gary@Garyhamel.com, it is as simple as that.

Bonus Content is Available As Well

Click the “FANATIC” image to learn more about pricing and member benefits.

Bonus episode 313 - California Crazy is a special kind of crazy. Here are a few links we discussed:

Greg Tirico

October 11, 2020

Episode #312: Third (and a half) interview with Rabbi Daniel Lapin

Greg Tirico

October 11, 2020

Rabbi Daniel Lapin, known world-wide as America's Rabbi, is a noted rabbinic scholar, best-selling author and host of the Rabbi Daniel Lapin podcast. He reveals how the world REALLY works and reminds us that the more things change, the more we need to depend upon those things that never change. Everyone needs a Rabbi and he is ours.

A bit more about Rabbi Lapin:
Rabbi Daniel Lapin, known worldwide as Americas Rabbi, is a noted rabbinic scholar, bestselling author and host of the Rabbi Daniel Lapin Show on The Blaze Radio Network. He is one of Americas most eloquent speakers and his ability to extract life principles from the Bible and transmit them in an entertaining manner has brought countless numbers of Jews and Christians closer to their respective faiths. In 2007 Newsweek magazine included him in its list of Americas fifty most influential rabbis. Before immigrating to the United States in 1973, Rabbi Daniel Lapin studied Torah, physics, economics and mathematics in Johannesburg, London and Jerusalem. Rabbi Lapin was the founding rabbi of Pacific Jewish Center, a legendary Orthodox synagogue in Venice, CA. Rabbi Lapin is a noted writer, published in the Wall Street Journal, National Review, Commentary, and The Jewish Press. His books are Americas Real War, Buried Treasure, Thou Shall Prosper, and Business Secrets from the Bible.

Ed’s Questions: Segment One

Well, we do have Father Sirico lined up for a couple of weeks from now but you beat him back. You're ahead of him now, technically. Well, just a quick bio for Rabbi Daniel Lapin, known worldwide as America's Rabbi. He’s a noted rabbinical scholar, a best-selling author and host of The Rabbi Daniel Lapin podcast, he reveals how the world really works and reminds us that the more things change, the more we need to depend upon those things that never change. So welcome back to The Soul of Enterprise. First question, how are you and your family riding out with the COVID situation?
Fair enough. Well, I'm glad you're well, that's the most important thing. A late report here. I'm in Texas. And you know it's got to be somewhat serious because the high school football team cancelled its game tonight because two of the kids got COVID. So we shall see. Anyway, under this notion of change and relying on ancient wisdom, back when we first interviewed you, we talked about your ten commandments of wealth creation, and number seven is learn to foretell the future. And in your book, you mentioned that the best known Jewish aphorism is “Whatever has been there will be and whatever is done will be done, there is nothing new under the sun.” So, you’ve studied economics, what's not new under the sun with this COVID-19? Because boy, it feels sure feels new to us.
As you were talking, I was thinking about a couple of reports that I've read this week about as challenging as it has been for us at least we do have Amazon. I think about some countries in Sub- Saharan Africa and other places that do have despots who are in charge, who are really using this as a way to put a lot of people down.
To that end, as someone who has studied economics, even if we snapped our fingers and everything went back to what it was before “The Great Suppression,” as Gene Epstein calls it, I think has really caused damage that is going to be with us for a number of years down the line. That’s one of my fears, that we're only beginning to see the ramifications of this long term. And that's even if everything got better almost immediately.
Well, I hope that happens. And as the saying goes, from your mouth to God's ears. Let's hope that that's the case.

Ron’s Questions: Segment Two

I listen to you religiously every week, your show is great, and we'll definitely link to it in the show notes. I couldn't go a week without it. As you know, Rabbi, this program we called The Soul of Enterprise because we wanted to talk about more than just the material aspects of business. Because as you taught me, as father Sirico taught me, George Gilder taught me, you guys talk about the spiritual side, and you have lots of fantastic explanations of the difference between physical and spiritual. I love and use your violin example all the time. But I love, maybe even more, because of the visual picture it paints, your pet chimpanzee. Can you explain that?
I think that's such a great distinction.
I love it. Rabbi, this is totally unfair. We've only got about a minute-and-a-half. But you always say the advice that you get from every commencement speech, “Do what you love,” is bad advice. Why do you say that?
Right, serve others and then you'll learn to love it. I love that advice. Unfortunately, we're up against the next break.

Ed’s Questions: Segment Three

And we are back with our Rabbi, Rabbi Daniel Lapin here on The Soul of Enterprise. And, Rabbi, I wanted to ask you, one of the things I've heard you say over and over again is that if there's not a Hebrew word for it, there's no reason for it. However, my guess is there's not a Hebrew word for innovation. But that doesn't mean that the Bible can't tell us an awful lot about innovation. So what does the Hebrew Bible have to say about innovation?
Yes, really neat stuff. The other thing I wanted to quickly ask you about, we've got about four minutes left. The renewal of the cities as you see them. One of the things that we've heard recently is that New York is going to die. It's all going to happen. But you have, I thought, a very interesting blog post where you say, Yes, all cities do have a tendency to go through a trauma, a time of trial, but oftentimes they rebound, and they often outlast even governments themselves?
Yeah, and I like the tie into the innovation piece, too. It's just great. Well, we're against our last break.

Ron’s Questions: Segment Four

Welcome back everybody. We're here with my rabbi, Rabbi Daniel Lapin, and Rabbi you say in [your book] Business Secrets from the Bible—which is a fantastic book and we will post all of your books on our show notes—that ancient Israel prohibited the king from counting the people because it implies that all people are identical. So I have two questions. Do you oppose the census? And, what is the threat from government counting?
Right? Kind of like you always say bricks, and [stones].
Great. You know, you also say another thing in Business Secrets from the Bible, that Jewish people understood specialization for millennia before Adam Smith? Can you give me an example?
Sure. Well, Rabbi, this has been fantastic. Thank you so much for coming back on for the fourth time. We've got to have you back a lot sooner than every couple years or so. Ed’s what's on store for next week?

Next week, we have Gary Hamel, the author of Humanocracy.

But first! A few extra resources for you…

Rabbi Daniel Lapin’s Website: www.rabbidaniellapin.com and www.youneedarabbi.com.
The Rabbi Daniel Lapin Podcast
Rabbi Lapin’s Books:
Listen to Rabbi Lapin’s prior appearances on The Soul of Enterprise:
- Episode #20
- Episode #86
- Episode #226 (with Father Robert Sirico)

Bonus Content is Available As Well

Click the “FANATIC” image to learn more about pricing and member benefits.

Bonus episode 312 - Southwest and Pricing during C-19. Here are a few links we discussed:

Greg Tirico

October 5, 2020

Episode #311: Second interview with Michael Munger

Greg Tirico

October 5, 2020

Michael Munger was an absolute hoot! If Ron had him as a professor in college he might have become an economist!

Before we get to the show notes, a bit more about Michael:
Professor Michael Munger received his Ph.D. in Economics at Washington University in St. Louis in 1984. Following his graduate training, he worked as a staff economist at the Federal Trade Commission. His first teaching job was in the Economics Department at Dartmouth College, followed by appointments in the Political Science Department at the University of Texas at Austin 19861990 and the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill 19901997. At UNC he directed the MPA Program, which trains public service professionals, especially city and county management. He moved to Duke in 1997, and was Chair of the Political Science Department from 2000 through 2010. He has won three University-wide teaching awards the Howard Johnson Award, an NAACP Image Award for teaching about race, and admission to the Bass Society of Teaching Fellows. He is currently director of the interdisciplinary PPE Program at Duke University.

Ron’s Questions: First Segment

Well, Mike, we had you on the last time in May of 2018 (May 2018, Episode #190). So just real quick, how have you been holding up with COVID? How's it affected your work at Duke?
That's great. Well, you know, last time we had you on we talked about your book to Tomorrow 3.0, which had just come out that year in 2018. This time, I'm dying to talk to you about your 2019 book, Is Capitalism Sustainable? Is it true, that’s a collection of different essays you wrote between 2005 and 2019?
So before we give the spoiler alert, and you give the answer to the question—is capitalism sustainable?—why did you feel the need to put that book together last year?
Right. No, you talk a lot about that. And I want to get there with you. You also gave the definition of sustainability, I think, from the Environmental Protection Agency's website: “the meeting the needs of the present without compromising the ability of future generations to meet their own needs.” Using that definition, Mike, is capitalism sustainable?
You call it the road to cronyism. And do you see any path off that road if we stick with democracy?
No, that was brilliant. You anticipated my next question, because you said the most important concept in political economy is permissionless innovation. I thought that was a pretty profound statement because we've had Adam Thierer on (Episode #294, June 2020) and he wrote that book, Permissionless Innovation, and he also wrote another one called Evasive Entrepreneurs, how the Ubers of the world go around the regulation. So you're somewhat optimistic as long as we have that constant dynamism, that constant creative destruction, and entrepreneurs, that we can overcome the road to cronyism?

Ed’s Questions: Segment Two

We're talking with Duke University's Professor Michael Munger about his book Is Capitalism Sustainable? and other topics. I thought I would be remiss Michael if I didn't ask you about something that has come up in the news lately. I think September 13th was the 50th anniversary of what's known as the Friedman Doctrine and his article The Social Responsibility of Business is to Increase its Profits. And the New York Times had a huge symposium about it. But I wanted to get your thoughts on this, because this is something that 50 years on, we're still talking a lot about. The fact that corporations need to do more than just produce profits, they need to sustain something else, they need to create value for society some other place. What are your thoughts on the Friedman Doctrine?
I'm glad I got you riled up on a Friday. Well, if that gets you going, you're going to love my next question, which was an article that came across my desk from, of all places, Teen Vogue, which is now banned in my house by the way. So here's the quote, ready? “Capitalism is defined as the economic system in which a country's trade and industry and profits are controlled by private companies”… Here's the kicker…“instead of by the people whose time and labor powers those companies.”
Yeah. And one more we got about two minutes before the end of this segment, but this is one that I came across from an article in a Canadian magazine called Canadian Dimension. The author is Richard Wolff. And he says in “COVID-19 and the failures of Capital”: The result is that neither private capitalism nor the US government performed its basic duty of an economic system, to protect and maintain public health and safety. US capitalism response to the coronavirus pandemic continues to be what it has been since December of 2019, too little too late. It failed. It is the problem. And I look at the world, because you kept Kiwi fruits in all of the stores throughout the entire pandemic, and you but you couldn't buy napkins or toilet paper and you were upset that it's a failure of capitalism. This is absurd.
Yes.. And we've been referring to it, I think this was Bob Murphy who referred to it as “The Great Suppression” [it was Gene Epstein who first said that, not Bob Murphy]. I love that.

Ron’s Questions: Third Segment

Well welcome back, everybody. We're here with Duke University Professor Michael Munger. And Mike, in your book, you talk about Dan Ariely the author of Predictably Irrational, we've also had him on (Episode #43). But you make a really good point about the behavioral economists in general, that they take a large number of dim bulbs, and they say but once they get together in a mob they can suddenly solve all these problems, and you're talking about by voting. And then they stop there, and they talk about the weaknesses of the market and people's irrationality, but they never apply it to government.
That brings to mind the [William F.] Buckley quote, “I’d rather be governed by the first 500 names in the Boston phone book rather than the faculty at Harvard.
That's true. You know, another thing you do really well in the book are your chapters on price gouging, and anti-price gouging laws, they’re just brilliant. You lay out the three problems. But give me the best case you can for why these laws are so irrational?
Then you make another point that I think is really profound is the guy that comes off of his couch watching the football game in Ohio and brings generators and needed supplies to a disaster area, he gets arrested versus the guy who does nothing.
And you also compare it to laying siege to a city. Yeah, that would be an act of war if an army did it. But we call it public policy
It’s amazing. You know, Mike, I'm out here in California where we're being just inundated with wildfires. And, of course, it's all blamed on climate change. But the whole carbon emissions “market failure,” we need a carbon tax. I'm sure you've heard this. But you've taught me, and other economists have taught me that prices are not an input to the process, the result of a discovery process. How confident are you that government knows what the right price is to put on the carbon tax?
Great, great point. The other part of your book that I really enjoyed was you take on recycling pretty strongly, and you have this acid test for determining whether something is a resource, or garbage. Can you explain that?
And as you point out, whether the government separates our trash or we do it, it's a waste of labor.
This has been great. I've really enjoyed it. Thank you so much Mike for coming back on. Ed's going to take you home in the last segment. But thank you so much. It's always a great pleasure.

Ed’s Questions: Fourth Segment

We're back with Professor Michael Munger of Duke University. During the break, folks, Michael and I found out that we're both running for our respective Texas and North Carolina House. So let's talk a little bit of politics. We talk a lot about business and government but what about this thing called the duopoly? This thing led by that Commission on Presidential Debates, which sounds so official, that is a wholly-owned subsidiary of the Democratic and Republican Party. How do we take down the duopoly?
And one of the things I want to ask you about. There's a fairly controversial issue in the Libertarian Party. What do you think about going to rank choice voting is a potential workaround around that first past the post and would encourage more parties; like what they're doing in California, which is the open primary system, and you just have the top two, which of those in your mind the better of the two?
Yeah, my favorite this week has been all the people I've had to educate on “A vote for Jo Jorgensen is a vote for”…and fill in the candidate they oppose. By what logic do you get there at all? It really burns me, it is just so condescending to say that my vote on principle is really a vote for something that I detest.
Or if you really thought that your vote needed to mean something you would move to Wisconsin, because where you live in California or New York is not going to matter. Well, before we started, I made this joke about the Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg dying two weeks ago when it seems like it was 10 years with this new cycle. And I know that something that Russ Roberts has talked a lot about is this political discourse is just getting more and more sour and the tribalism. How do you see us emerging out of this at some point, or is this may be going to get worse? Have we reached the bottom of the barrel in your view?
All right, well, you got a lot in there. Michael, thank you so much for joining us on The Soul of Enterprise. This has absolutely been a blast. And hopefully we will, one day when all of this starts to lift, my brother as I mentioned to you last time also works at Duke. So I would love to come out and have a beer. Maybe I can sit in between you and Dan Ariely, that would be great. Thanks for being on The Soul of Enterprise.

A Few Extra Links For You…

We had such a wide ranging conversation with Micahel Munger and we didn’t want you to miss these links. They are not endorsements (as you will see from the Teen Vogue link) but they were points of discussion during the show.

A Friedman doctrine‐- The Social Responsibility Of Business Is to Increase Its Profits
“There is one and only one social responsibility of business—to use its resources and engage in activities designed to increase its profits so long as it stays within the rules of the game, which is to say, engages in open and free competition without deception fraud."
What 'Capitalism' Is and How It Affects People
Capitalism is defined as an economic system in which a country’s trade, industry, and profits are controlled by private companies, instead of by the people whose time and labor powers those companies.
COVID-19 and the failures of capitalism
The result is that neither private capitalism nor the US government performed the most basic duty of any economic system: to protect and maintain public health and safety. US capitalism’s response to the coronavirus pandemic continues to be what it has been since December 2019: too little, too late. It failed. It is the problem.