Greg Tirico

May 30, 2021

Episode 342: Interview with Charles C. W. Cooke, Senior Writer for National Review

Greg Tirico

May 30, 2021

Ron’s Questions: Segment One

Welcome to The Soul of Enterprise: Business in the Knowledge Economy, sponsored by Sage, transforming the way people think and work so their organizations can thrive. I'm Ron Baker, along with my good friend and VeraSage Institute colleague, Ed Kless. And on today's show, folks, we have Charles Cooke, senior writer from National Review. Hey, Ed, how's it going?

Outstanding, Ron. Really looking forward to this conversation.

Ron

Me, too. Let me read an abbreviated bio: Charles CW Cooke is a senior writer for National Review, and the former editor of National Review Online. He is a graduate of the University of Oxford, at which he studied modern history and politics. He's the co-host of Mad Dogs and Englishman podcast, which he does with Kevin Williamson, also a previous guests on the show [Episode #322], and as a regular guest on HBO’s Real Time with Bill Maher, which I've got to ask him how he puts up with that. He is also the author of The Conservatarian Manifesto: Libertarians, Conservatives, and the Fight for the Right’s Future, which was published in 2015. He is also a roller coaster fan, so we'll definitely talk about that. Welcome to The Soul of Enterprise, Charlie Cooke.

I want to dive right into your book, The Conservatarian Manifesto: Libertarians, Conservatives, and the Fight for the Right’s Future. I have to tell you, I love the term. I know it's awkward. I know it's a mouthful, but I think it conveys the right spirit. And you write in the book that the term first appeared on your radar in 2006. And there's a fantastic insight, and I can't tell you how true I think this is: When I'm around conservatives, I feel like a libertarian. And when I'm around libertarians, I feel like a conservative. I was at a Libertarian Party event with Ed, and I was sitting at the table and we were all talking about what we were and I said I'm a Conservatarian. I got blank stares. They were like, “What is that?” So Charles, what is a Conservatarian?

And the other thing that I really loved is you quoted one of [Ronald] Reagan's most famous statements, “The very heart and soul of conservatism is libertarianism.” And without it, the Right is nothing. Ed's a Libertarian, and I'm more of a Conservatarian, in the William F. Buckley and Thomas Sowell strain. I do have a big conservative streak thanks to National Review, but I agree with Ed on 70 or 80% of issues. He's not my enemy. He's my friend. Do you think fusionism, or a return to fusionism if it's splintered, is possible?

You do a great job in the book talking about the weaknesses of Libertarians, and the weaknesses of Conservatives. And then I think about an issue like the right to guns, where we say you can't blame an inanimate object for killing somebody. But then when it turns to drugs, Conservatives turn into the Nanny State. I look at the victories that we're having with marijuana legalization, and maybe other drugs like in Oregon, and I think that's a great example of the benefits of this fusionism idea.

Those are great points. You also cited Margaret Thatcher who said, “Europe was created by history. But America was created by philosophy.” And you've experienced both Charlie. You came here voluntarily and became a citizen. What does this difference mean to you?

Well, I love talking to immigrants to this country, because they seem to have a different perspective, and they really appreciate liberty, whereas sometimes I think we natives take it for granted. So I really appreciate your passion for the country.

Well, we're lucky to have you. Unfortunately, we're up against our first break.

Ed’s Questions: Segment Two

And the book is The Conservatarian Manifesto: Libertarians, Conservatives, and the Fight for the Right’s Future. We are talking with Charles Cooke today. I want to talk to you a little bit about China. You've written extensively about that. But, before I do, the Libertarian in me can't escape the conversation that you were having with Ron and ask you about immigration. What about federalism applied to immigration, since in theory, immigration is not mentioned in the Constitution, just the process of naturalization? Could we have a workable immigration policy that is also federalist?

Yeah, it's clearly a challenge. It's one of those things where people of good faith have great arguments on both sides and can make intelligent arguments about it. Turning to China, I want to ask you this question that we've asked a number of people. We thought back in the 1990s, when China began to liberalize, that there would be, first, they would liberalize from an economic standpoint, and then the political liberalization would follow. How’d we miss it? What did we get wrong? Or have we just not waited long enough?

Well, maybe it's just we’ve got to send the right sport. And that would be baseball, in my opinion. Because, I mean, it worked in Japan after World War II is all I'm saying.

More seriously, we've had father Robert Sirico on [Episode #318], as well as Peter Robinson [Episode #320], who both mentioned their relationship with Jimmy Lai. And they both interviewed him, who is unfortunately now in prison, I think still in Hong Kong, which is good, I guess. Is Hong Kong lost in your opinion?

Ron and I have talked about that on some of our bonus episodes, that that would be the smart move, without question, to throw our arms open to all of those folks [emigrating from Hong Kong]. And now, turning your attention, do you think Taiwan is going to suffer the same fate? Do you think the US has enough backbone to resist this? And then I have a very specific question on this with regard to the Second Amendment. Do you know about gun ownership in Taiwan? Do a lot of individuals have guns? And would that make a difference, potentially, if the citizenry were to be as Second Amendment friendly as we are here in the States?

It's a very practical, potential solution and relatively, in the long run, inexpensive. But we are up against our break.

Ron’s Questions: Segment Three

Welcome back, everybody. We're here with Charles Cooke, senior writer at National Review. And Charles, one of the things I've heard you talk about, and rail against, is this idea of how we pay homage to our politicians by calling him “Governor Romney.” And you say we don't have royalty in America, we have employees. And boy, did this really hit during COVID? It seems like we were being ruled. I'm in California, so you can imagine why I feel that way.

That's a good point. I'm going to have some rapid fire questions for you, you can still take your time. What do you think about our policy in Cuba? Obama relaxed it, Trump restored some of the sanctions. What's your position on Cuba?

Do you favor term limits?

I'm a roller coaster nut because I know I'll never fly with a Thunderbird in an F-16. What got you into them?

Are you a wooden or steel fan?

Have you seen Falcon’s Flight at [Six Flags] Qiddiya, which is outside of Riyadh, in Saudi Arabia? It's opening in 2023, it's 2.5 miles long, 155 MPH, with a 525 foot drop.

Awesome. Well, that's great. Unfortunately, Charlie, we're up against our next break.

Ed’s Questions: Segment Four

We are talking today with Charles Cooke, and Charles I wanted to talk to you a little bit about a speech that you gave in Utah about why we need weirdos. To quote from the speech, I love this line, “Excluding people who are different will exclude people who make a difference.” Talk about that.

I think it's George Bernard Shaw who said, “All progress depends on the unreasonable man.” [“The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man”].

I do another podcast for Sage and I have an exit question. It's a short form podcast. And the exit question is, “Who is a hero of yours and why are they a hero?” And it's interesting to hear the response, oftentimes, the answer is prefaced with the following. “Well, I don't have any heroes, but I do admire people greatly.” And to your point, how would you respond to this, that we have, in some ways, misunderstood the term hero. Heroes usually have a tragic flaw, that's actually part of being a hero, and we have mythologized heroes to be what my Catholic faith would call Saint. And that's not what we're talking about here at all?

Yes, absolutely. That's the commercial that Apple had. Here's to the rule breakers, that great, great commercial. We have about a minute left, just want to see what's coming up for you, Charles Cooke, do you have another book in the hopper maybe?

All right. Well, Charles Cooke, senior writer with National Review, thanks so much for being on The Soul of Enterprise today.

Ron

Thank you, Charles. Ed, what do we have coming up next week?

Coming up next week? I was supposed to ask you that question. But I have to pull up my spreadsheet. We’re talking about factors and price sensitivity and the subscription model. So that's going to be two topics that we love talking about combined into one.

Ron

Awesome, I'll see you in 167 hours.

Bonus Content is Available As Well

Did you know that each week after our live show, Ron and Ed take to the microphone for a bonus show? Typically, this bonus show is an extension of the live show topic (sometimes even with the same guest) and a few other pieces of news, current events, or things that have caught our attention.

This week is bonus episode 342 - Personality Profile Update and Tariffs

Here are some links discussed in the bonus episode:

Click the “FANATIC” image to learn more about pricing and member benefits.

Greg Tirico

May 23, 2021

Episode 341: Interview with Corey McComb, Productivity Is For Robots

Greg Tirico

May 23, 2021

Ed’s Questions: Segment One

Welcome to The Soul of Enterprise: Business in the Knowledge Economy, sponsored by Sage, transforming the way people think and work so their organizations can thrive. I'm Ed Kless with my great friend and co-host, Ron Baker. And on today's show, folks, we are pleased to have with us author, Corey McComb. Ron, how's it going?

Ron

It's going great, Ed. And I'm so looking forward to this. You know, I read Corey’s book, about a month or two ago and I thought it was brilliant, so this is going to be a fun conversation.

It absolutely is. We're going to welcome him into what we lovingly refer to as the ‘Effing Debate. We'll explain that to him in a little bit. But let me bring him on. Corey McComb is a writer based in San Diego, California. And I love this bio guys, wait till you hear this. After being kidnapped by the rock and roll circus at the age of 16, he was forced to strum his way across the country and back again. He then toiled as a peon in parking garages and seedy telemarketing pits until becoming an international man of mystery (It's still classified by the way). In search of free concert tickets, he moved on to music journalism and began a steamy love affair with the blank page. Corey now helps people in companies validate ideas, tell their stories, and launch products. His own writing focuses on the sweet spots in life where human connection, creativity, and personal growth intersect. His book, which is the main topic of today's conversation, is Productivity Is For Robots: How to (Re)connect, Get Creative, And Stay Human In The New World. Welcome to The Soul of Enterprise Corey McComb.

I have to tell you, yours is the second best bio I think we’ve had. Our first guest ever is an economic historian named Deirdre McCloskey [Episode #6], who to this day still has the best bio. And we'll just mention that and you can read it at another time, and you can see if you agree, it's just absolutely fantastic. It ends with “who is a woman who once was a man.” So you really had a high bar. So it's all good. But Corey, I'm going to start with a meta question here, because your book is meta. I'm going to ask you to tell the story of the story of your book.

Yeah, I was reminded of a great line, as I was reading the early portion of your book, “One day on my way to bed, I passed myself on the way to work.” And when you alluded to it just a little bit in your answer there, but I want you to expand on this line, because this is, I think, the third highlight I made in your book, and this is a fantastic line, “Technology was meant to set us free. Instead, we've chosen to imitate it.”

Well, let's just do this if I could. One thing that struck me, the way that I would describe your book is that productivity and creativity are not the same thing. And for some reason, we seem to be letting them conflate in our minds—that being productive and being creative are the same thing. And it’s not.

My personal Why is “I believe that entrepreneurs continue the work of creation.” We're not going to be creative by having the latest apps. It's not all about the apps, we don't need apps for everything. And one thing that really struck me about your book was a quote that I had heard a number of years ago, that said, “If your job can be completely taken over by bots, your job pretty much sucks.” And we're trying to force ourselves to get our jobs to be taken over by bots, and then only to find more bots. It's a crazy rat race.

Pittman Magee, whom I believe is a business philosopher as well an ordained minister, said that “The opposite of love is not hate, but efficiency.” One of the lines that I love is “The same habits which make us flawed at efficiency can be turned into strengths and effectiveness.” And my note to myself in the book is you were having the internal ‘Effing Debate. So let me tee up what the ‘Effing Debate is. Ron founded a think tank called the VeraSage Institute a number of years ago, and one of the main threads of the original blog that we had was this ‘Effing Debate, efficiency versus effectiveness. And the whole notion is who cares if you're efficient if it's at the wrong thing? And what your book did for me is help to clarify that, am I spending too much time trying to be efficient on the wrong stuff? So anyway, really good there. I've got to leave it. I'm going to let Ron pick up from there because we're up against our first break.

Ron’s Questions: Segment Two

Welcome back, everybody. We're here with Corey McComb, the author of Productivity Is For Robots: How to (Re)connect, Get Creative, And Stay Human In The New World. And as I said, Corey, I just absolutely loved this book, and knew I had to get you on the show after I read it. Your book is divided into three parts: (re)connect, create, and flow, which you say is kind of a circle. And I really liked that as a metaphor. But let me just ask you about this. You wrote “Without purpose, what good is productivity?” And I know later on in the book you quote from Viktor Frankl, who said, “What good is freedom without purpose?” So what do you mean by, Without purpose, what good is productivity?

Right, it's really about not confusing being busy with being effective, or purposeful, or impactful, however you want to say it. The other thing that I really liked is you told Ed that we try to meet technology halfway, and that is so true as the bots and AI get better, we try to imitate it. And I think it was in The 8th Habit where Stephen Covey wrote, “We can be efficient with things, but not with people.” And I guess my question to you is, why do you think businesses have such a hard time understanding that; we all pay lip service to being a relationship business, but you can't be efficient with relationships? Nobody defines their marriage as efficient.

I think the two are mutually exclusive, because you can be highly efficient without being at all effective, but not the other way around. Usually, if you're effective, you also tend to be efficient.

You make another point about how time with other humans is a vital part of being creative. And the time we spend with others is not a luxury, it's actually a necessity. Do you think we understand that better now, after COVID? After being locked in our houses for a year?

You also talk about the importance of play, and I love how you cited Timothy Walker, who moved from Boston to Finland to become a fifth grade teacher, and he said that they have something like [two] hours a day of recess, where in the US it’s like 27 minutes. And that's why they're so much more relaxed [have behavioral issues] and all of that. And then you wrote this, and I absolutely love this, “In 401k adulthood, many people trade in their dreams for smart goals. Our inner child looks at this like a plate of vegetables.” And [then you quote] Dr. Seuss, “Adults are just obsolete children.” Explain that, because I love the concept of play and how important it is, and it's not the opposite of work?

Ricardo Semler, who's written a couple great books, asks why do we think the opposite of work is leisure when in fact, it's idleness? So play is just another form of work. The other thing I love that you talked about is the ability to change your mind, and have that open mind and be curious. And far be it for me to quote from Timothy Leary like you did, but he said, “You're only as young as the last time you changed your mind.” We did a whole episode on that [Episode #147]. Corey, what was it like for you? What was this process of going from this productivity paradox, or trap, you were in to the way you see the world now? Was it a slow, gradual process, or was it like a BFO, a blinding flash of the obvious?

It's so liberating, literally, to say, “I don't know.” And yet so many of us are afraid of saying that. Was it Richard Feynman who said, “It's so easy to fool people, and the easiest person to fool is yourself.” Corey, this is great. Unfortunately, we're up against our next break.

Ed’s Questions: Segment Three

The book is Productivity Is For Robots: How to (Re)connect, Get Creative, And Stay Human In The New World. The author is Corey McComb. Corey, I want to drill down a little bit more on the notion of creativity that you were talking about with Ron. During the break, we were mentioning that we had interviewed George Gilder [Episode #207] and this is a sentence from your book, you say, “Technology can never replicate human creativity, because codes and algorithms are built on predictions of what's expected to happen. Creativity is the unexpected.” That's in total alignment with what Gilder is saying; he says, “Creativity always comes as a surprise to us. Otherwise socialism would work.” Because it could be planned. But we can't plan creativity. And the other thing that I want to get your reaction to is the following quote from another mentor of mine who said, “Creativity and anxiety are always inversely proportional to each other.” So the more anxious you are, the less creative you can be. And you can't turn on creativity, you can only lower anxiety, that's the only thing that we have the ability to do. So talk a little bit about that. I think that's very much in alignment with your notion of creativity as well.

You quote Dave Chappelle who says, “Let the ideas drive.” Talk a little bit about that.

And Chappelle says, “Well, sometimes you're in the passenger seat, and sometimes the idea throws you in the trunk.” I thought this is an interesting transition, because I'm now teaching my 15-year-old son how to drive. And it's interesting to see how much brain power he has to apply to driving that I, myself as a 30 plus-year driver, don't have to do it. And I think in the book called Flow, a number of years ago, one of the examples of getting into flow that we all experience is driving, which I think is pretty interesting. Because we can do it without being fully conscious of it, yet be fully competent at it. And I'm always struck by that, that all of us are capable of flow, because we can do it while driving. We just have to now figure out a way to apply it to other places in our lives to get into that state of flow. So talk a little bit about flow.

I think that's a great point. Because not every day for us is the fifth, or sixth, or seventh game of the NBA Finals, where you have to leave it out there on the court, which makes sense. But we see that and have to take that with it. Recently, and I don't know if you saw this, but on Hemingway, there's a PBS special on Hemingway. And the other thing that struck me when watching that, he also said, “All I have to start out with every day is one true sentence.” And I just love the notion of one true sentence and go from there.

I'm not, I have to tell you. I like Hemingway, I don't like his writing. He's fascinating. Old Man and the Sea never did it for me, and I even read it as an adult. But we don't want to go down that rabbit hole. It is a great thing, I think, to never leave that well empty. That's such an important message for all of us. I want to talk to you a little bit about this one quote that you have. It's a first world dilemma, you say, to explore or to be productive? What do you mean by that?

Another quote that I just absolutely love is this, you say, “There's an important distinction to make between delusions of grandeur and delusions of possibility.” Unpack that for me.

Love that, great stuff, Corey. Thank you so much. Ron's going to take you the rest of the way home in the last segment.

Ron’s Questions: Segment Four

Welcome back, everybody. We're here with Corey McComb, he’s the author of Productivity Is For Robots: How to (Re)connect, Get Creative, And Stay Human In The New World. And Corey, I found this to be incredibly thought provoking. You say, “When I look back at the mindsets that crippled me into a burned out robot, lack of patience tops the list.” Why?

That's such a great point that we look at others, like you said, the highlight reel on social media, or look at somebody like Stephen King, and think, I'm a slouch. This guy writes 10 books a year, or something. It's amazing. The other thing that I really liked is when you said, “When we focus on competition too much, not only does that lead to things getting watered down, replicated versions of what we're competing against. But it's also a fast track toward another human nature land mind: Envy.” Explain that?

There's so many lessons in that. I think of market share, companies that are so focused on the competition, all they care about is their market share. And yet companies that don't really care about that, they are more customer focused, tend to do a lot better, because they're not, like you say, their stuff doesn't get watered down, they're actually different.

Such a good point. Envy is such a destructive thing. In fact, I've been threatening Ed for the last two years, we're going to do a show on envy because it's such a deleterious thing over time. So this is your your first book. How has it been received so far?

Have you gotten any emails? And let me just ask you this, this is really self-aggrandizing, are we your first interview on the book?

Yeah, no, we did read it. When you're an author, there's nothing more frustrating, because an author can tell right away if the person's read their book or not. You just know, because you've lived with it for so long. Ayn Rand used to say, “I'm with novel.” That is kind of how it feels. So you wrote towards the end, “You're a first time author with dreams of writing more.” What's next, if you're willing to talk about it?

Excellent. Well, hopefully you'll come back when that comes out. Thank you so much, Corey. This has been an honor. Ed, what do we have on store for next week?

Next week, Ron, our interview with Charlie Cooke. His book is The Conservatarian Manifesto.

Ron

Ah, the right honorable Charles CW Cooke, Ed.

Bonus Content is Available As Well

This week is bonus episode 341 - Stealing Monkeys and Ron's UFO Theory

Here are some links discussed in the bonus episode:

Click the “FANATIC” image to learn more about pricing and member benefits.

Greg Tirico

May 16, 2021

Episode #340: Interview with Tony Dolan, Chief Speechwriter for Ronald Reagan

Greg Tirico

May 16, 2021

Ron’s Questions: Segment One

Welcome to The Soul of Enterprise: Business in the Knowledge Economy, sponsored by Sage, transforming the way people think and work so that organizations can thrive. I'm Ron Baker, along with my good friend and VeraSage Institute colleague, Ed Kless. On today's show, folks, we are honored—we have Tony Dolan, former President Reagan's Chief Speechwriter. Hey, Ed, how's it going?

Great, Ron. I can't wait to talk to Tony. It's going to be fantastic.

Ron

Yes, we're making our way through Reagan’s speechwriters. This is wonderful. So let me read Tony’s Bio, and I can’t do it justice because it's incredible [see below for full Biographical information]. Anthony Dolan is a Pulitzer-Prize winning journalist, at the age of 29, and was chief speechwriter for President Ronald Reagan, from March 1981, until the end of 1989. For a time he was a conservative folk singer who put out the album, “Cry, The Beloved Country.” He wrote two of Reagan's most famous speeches, “The Ash Heap of History” speech and “The Evil Empire” speech. Tony Dolan, welcome to The Soul of Enterprise.

So Tony, how did you go from having a youthful indiscretion of supporting JFK in 1960, to being chief speechwriter in the Reagan White House?

That's incredible. I never had the chance to meet William Buckley or Reagan, for that matter. And you were a pallbearer at Buckley's funeral. What was he like, Tony?

Excellent. I will check that out [see National Review links below for more of Tony’s writings]. That's wonderful. Because everybody says he had such a magnetism about him, and he was just such an energetic guy. When you talked to him, you felt like you were the only person in the room.

I want to talk to you about Reagan's four speeches that framed the Cold War. And of course, you're responsible for a lot of these, your fingerprints are on them. But the British Parliament speech, where he announced his strategy in 1982; the Evil Empire Speech, where he made the moral case for pursuing his strategy; the Berlin Wall speech, of course, where he pressed his advantage with Gorbachev; and then the Moscow State University speech where he took his victory lap, I guess you could say. You wrote the first two of those—the first, the British Parliament speech is phenomenal. What's the backstory with that?

Tony, that's fantastic. And unfortunately, we're up against our first break.

Ed’s Questions: Segment Two

And we're back with presidential speechwriter for Ronald Reagan, Tony Dolan. Tony on the speech at the House of Commons that you were just talking to Ron about, Ronald Reagan had a reputation for being a war monger. But at least twice, if not three times in this speech, he clearly says I'm willing to negotiate. I want to negotiate. Talk a little bit about why you think his reputation has been so tarnished. It's a bizarre thing to me when he was clearly willing to negotiate.

There's a great moment in the speech, and it comes just before the ash heap of history line, that I sort of remember from the time but really came into full view after re-listening to it, when he invites Brezhnev to speak on American TV in exchange for allowing him to speak on Soviet TV. Was that Reagan? Was that something that you came up with? What's the origin of that? Do you recall?

Yet it was one of the few lines that provoked a response from that audience. There was almost absolutely no response, positive or negative, for the entire speech with the exception of that invitation to Brezhnev. I thought that was quite interesting.

It was just an interesting thing, he wraps up by saying, in the most optimistic Reagan voice, “A new age is not just possible, but probable.” Every speech I think I’ve ever heard from him ends on an optimistic note. That's just his personality wasn't it?

Outstanding. Well, we're up against our next break.

Ron’s Questions: Segment Three

We're here with Tony Dolan, who was the chief speechwriter for both terms of Ronald Reagan's presidency. Tony, amongst the Reagan administration, there were people who were labeled “true believers,” and “the pragmatists,” and of course, one of the pragmatists was David Gergen. This guy's a textbook pragmatist. Anytime I want to know what the conventional wisdom is in Washington, I listen to David Gergen, because that's about all you're going to get. But he said in a 2000 interview, and I'm sure you're aware of this, I just wanted to get your reaction. He said, “I hate to admit it. Tony Dolan was right. And I was wrong. That phrase, the evil empire allowed Reagan to speak truth to totalitarianism.” How's that make you feel?

The way [Reagan] framed the Cold War, Tony, has always fascinated me. He said, basically, “We win, and they lose.” It's simple, but it's not easy, which is a sign of remarkable ingenuity and creativity. But you explain that by saying he was an actor, he's used to alternative endings. And I think that's a profound insight.

Tony, Clare Boothe Luce said, “A great man is one sentence.” What do you think Reagan's one sentence is?

Yes, Margaret Thatcher, I think, said “He won the cold war without firing a shot.”

Excellent. Well, Tony, thank you so much. Ed's going to take you all the way home, but I just wanted to say thank you, this has been an absolute honor to be able to talk to you.

Ed’s Questions: Segment Four

And we're finishing up here with our guest, Tony Dolan, Reagan's chief speechwriter for all eight years in the White House. Tony, I'm going to go back to the Evil Empire speech and I have to ask this question. The joke early on that he tells about the politician and the clergyman going to Heaven. Was that his joke? Was that something he collected?

In the speech, I think, he quotes from [Alexis] de Tocqueville, “If America ceases to be good, it will cease to be great.” And then Reagan mentions that the turn to secularism is beginning to happen in the in the United States, but they're not a majority yet, he says. Do you think the secularists are a majority now? And are we ceasing to be good?

I have a question for you about speech delivery. As you saw with Reagan, he clearly was the master of the teleprompter and did it really well. But I did notice in preparing for this interview that when he would quote from someone, he would look back down in his notes, rather than read it off of the teleprompter. Was that something that he just did naturally? Or was he really searching to get the quote right?

We've got only about one minute left. And the one last thing I want to ask you about is, I heard a quote that you said about Reagan: that he did not mind people calling it [The Strategic Defense Initiative, SDI] Star Wars. Talk a little bit about that, if you recall?

So true. Well, the last quote I have is from speechwriters. I think Peter Robinson said, “We stole from him” and another speechwriter said that “He was the best editor I ever had.” Tony Dolan, thank you so much for appearing today on The Soul of Enterprise. We really enjoyed this conversation. I hope maybe you'll come back and maybe we can get a better connection next time. Thanks again, Tony.

All right, Ron, what do we have coming up next week.

Ron

Next week we have Cory McComb. He's the author of Productivity Is For Robots, a book I thoroughly enjoyed.

Alright, that's it outstanding. I'll see you in 167 hours.

More Information on Tony Dolan

ANTHONY R. DOLAN

Pulitzer Prize at 29 for investigative reporting for exposes of the Gambino crime family and corrupt cops and politicians.
Chief speechwriter for eight years for President Reagan.
Special Adviser to Sec of Defense Donald Rumsfeld for six and a half years. (In the Pentagon on 9\11. Briefer for SecDef, Joint Chiefs Chairman, and combatant commanders before news conferences.)
Senior Adviser to Secretary of State Colin Powell.
A veteran of eight presidential campaigns and many state and national contests, Produced many noted TV spots and media campaigns for candidates and SuperPacs.
Special Assistant to President Donald J. Trump and Advisor on Planning, 2017-2021

BIOGRAPHY

      Anthony R. Dolan is a graduate of Fairfield Preparatory School, and Yale University, where he majored in philosophy and history.

     Beginning with F. Clifton White Associates in the early 1970s, he has worked as a political consultant on many campaigns and held staff positions on eight presidential campaigns.

     As a reporter for the Stamford Advocate, he won six journalism awards for his exposures of organized crime and public corruption including the 1978 Pulitzer Prize for investigative reporting. His work in Stamford and exposure of mob influence reaching into the state capitol was recently written about in Roguetown, a book by undercover police officer Vito Collucci who dedicated the volume to him.

Mr. Dolan’s stories resulted in the resignation or dismissal of more than 15 local and state officials as well as multiple indictments of organized crime figures, corrupt police officers and others. His series exposing Gambino family ties to government officials and the many personal threats of physical violence it led to were the subject of a 1981 Rolling Stone feature article and the 1983 development of a movie script at Paramount Studios. (Later the also the subject of a Hollywood Reporter column by legendary film authority Robert Osborne.) Two years later the Connecticut State Supreme Court – in a unanimous decision written by the Chief Justice that was seen as an affirmation of reporters’ First Amendment rights -- ruled against Connecticut’s State Senate Majority leader (who had been defeated for reelection due to Dolan’s stories about mob influence) and affirmed the disputed stories were not only protected from a libel action under Times-vs-Sullivan precedent but were also true.

Mr. Dolan was the only member of President’s Reagan’s senior staff to serve all eight years at the White House where he was chief speechwriter and Special Assistant and Deputy Assistant to President Reagan. In addition to supervising the speeches at four Reagan-Gorbachev summits, he worked with President Reagan on many foreign policy speeches including the "evil empire" speech in Orlando Fla., the "asheap of history" speech to the British Parliament at Westminster Hall, London, and “Tear Down the Wall” in Berlin. The story of the latter speech is found in his Wall Street Journal article called “Four Little Words.” Mr. Dolan also worked closely with President Reagan on a July 1981 Address to the Nation on tax-cuts that sparked a strong public reaction and overcame entrenched opposition to the legislation. His speech drafts in the campaign of 1980 and through the early years of the administration emphasized Ronald Reagan’s desire to celebrate American heroes especially those in the US military. One national tradition, presidential phone calls on Christmas to members of the five services, grew out of Mr. Dolan’s initial suggestion.

In June of 1982, at the invitation of Attorney General William French Smith, Mr. Dolan made a presentation on organized crime and public corruption to the Justice Department senior staff and played a major role in developing the Reagan administration’s October 1982 plan for a crackdown on the mob that led to a quadrupling of prosecutions and disintegration of seveal mob families. In addition to a Loa Angeles Times story on his behind-the-scenes work, then FBI Director William Webster referred to him as “the guiding spirit” behind the plan. Along with famous undercover FBI agent Joseph Pistone (“Donnie Brasco”) Mr. Dolan was one of two speakers to address the organizational dinner meeting of the President’s Commission on Organized Crime in 1984.

In the field of foreign policy, he has served as a special adviser to the US. Delegation to UNESCO in Paris France (1984) and the UN Disarmament Conference in Geneva Switzerland (1988).

On the last day of the Reagan administration Mr Dolan received a handwritten note from President Reagan that said "Tony ….you were keeper of the flame."

A friend of President George HW Bush, Mr. Dolan was an unofficial adviser during his term in office. In the administration of George W Bush, Mr. Dolan was at the State Department during the presidential transition and then was Senior Adviser to Secretary of State Colin Powell until July 2001. For the next six and a half years, he served as a Special Adviser to Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld. Mr. Dolan, who was in the Pentagon on 9\11, had a principal role in briefing the Secretary of Defense, Chairmen of the Joint Chiefs as well as Combatant Commanders before each news conference. A former US Army Specialist 4, Mr. Dolan was the recipient of the Department of Defense's civilian award, The Medal for Public Service. He also wrote and broadcast for Our American Network a tribute to wounded and fallen war heroes (especially those he knew) called “They Will Be Remembered” .

He then served as Special Adviser on the presidential campaigns of Fred Thompson (2008), Newt Gingrich (2012) and Ted Cruz (2016).

Mr. Dolan has run his own communications strategy firm working with a wide array of major associations and corporations as well as political clients. His work producing TV spots and media campaigns for candidates and SuperPacs have drawn widespread commentary during the last ten years. His writings have appeared in a variety of journals and newspapers from National Review and the Washington Monthly to the op-ed pages of the New York Times and Wall St. Journal.

His writing career began in the late ‘60s when he began a close friendship with National Review editor William F. Buckley Jr, and for whom he was a pallbearer at his 2008 St Patrick’s Cathedral funeral. In the late 60s and early 70s, Mr. Dolan also wrote music and recorded an album as well as performed four nights a week at Finnegan’s Wake on New York’s Upper East Side.

Tony’s writing in National Review

Blood of the Father

Reagan and His Favorite Magazine

Reagan Revisited

Bonus Content is Available As Well

This week is bonus episode 340 - Masks and Flying Taxis

Here are some links discussed in the bonus episode:

Click the “FANATIC” image to learn more about pricing and member benefits.

Greg Tirico

May 9, 2021

Episode #339: Interview with Patrick Reasonover, Producer of “They Say It Can’t Be Done”

Greg Tirico

May 9, 2021

About Patrick Reasonover

Patrick Reasonover is the lead Producer on They Say It Can’t be Done. He previously produced the award-winning feature-length documentary Of Dogs and Men. He is co-creator and producer on an animated comedy web series based on the NY Times bestselling book series, “The Politically Incorrect Guides,” also to be released Fall 2020. Through his work with corporate partners, Patrick has produced more than 300 animated, documentary, virtual reality, and narrative projects. He holds a B.A. from Emory University in Creative Writing and Philosophy.

Ed’s Questions: Segment One

Welcome to The Soul of Enterprise: Business in the Knowledge Economy, sponsored by Sage, transforming the way people think and work so their organizations can thrive. I’m Ed Kless with my good friend and co-host, Ron Baker. And folks, on today's show, we are pleased to have our interview with Patrick Reasonover. Let me quick read the bio and bring him on. Patrick Reasonover is lead producer on the movie, They Say It Can't Be Done. He previously produced the award-winning feature length documentary Of Dogs and Men. And he is the co-creator and producer of an animated comedy web series entitled, based on the New York Times best-selling books, The Politically Incorrect Guides, has been released in 2020. Through his work with corporate partners, Patrick has produced more than 300 animated documentaries, virtual reality and narrative projects. He earned a BA from Emory University in creative writing and philosophy. Welcome to The Soul of Enterprise, Patrick Reasonover.

I first got introduced to you, one of your publicists got in touch with me. And we did an episode of the Sage Thought Leadership podcast together, which was about three months ago, and talked for about 10 minutes. And I said this is a really fascinating documentary, I’ve got to get this guy on The Soul of Enterprise. So I sent it over to Ron and he took a look at it and said, yeah, this is a great topic for us. Patrick, let's talk about They Say It Can't Be Done. Talk a little bit about the film, [which was released on March 23, for rental and purchase, on all kinds of major platforms: Apple, YouTube or pretty much wherever you want to stream. It is rolling out internationally as well in Japan, and now I think in Arabic, across the swath of those countries, we’re very excited to finally get it out there. What's the initial reaction so far so good?

The film focuses on four different companies, or industries, or problems: Just, the alternative meat; The Center for Negative Carbon Emissions; Regenerative Medicine; and the Catalina Sea Ranch, and the story then weaves together around what they propose as these innovative solutions. But then also goes back and forth with the regulations and the challenges that these folks face. And I think you've done a pretty fair job of showing both the pluses and the minuses [of regulation]. I didn't find this to be hugely skewed one way or the other. Others might not think that, maybe that's just confirming my biases, I suppose it's possible. Is that something you strived for, a balance, because it comes across to me in the film?

What I thought was really neat about it, you also had some experts, such as Alex Tabarrok, Tom Bell, Clark Neily, Adam Thierer [and others]. Adam Thierer has been a guest on the on the show, talking about Permissionless Innovation [Episode #294]. But you also had folks who were regulators who you interviewed as well. And I thought that was an interesting balance. Tell me a little bit about those conversations that you had with those folks, before we get into the meat, if you will, of the documentary?

One of our former guests, Steven Landsberg [Episode #106], suggested that the FDA be paid in pharmaceutical stock to counteract that problem.

I forget which economist, might have even been Steven Landsburg [it was]: The two words that all economists agree on is incentives matter, everything else is commentary. That's certainly what we have. Just a quick story, we'll get into some of the different stories that you had in the documentary, but my son, curiously, is having a pizza party with his friends tonight, they're coming over, and they'll be ordering, I'm sure they'll be ordering cheese pizza and pepperoni pizza. And what I learned from your documentary is that cheese pizza is regulated by the [FDA], and pepperoni pizza is regulated by the [Department of Agriculture]. And it's just a great example of the confusion, and not the regulator's fault, per se, right? That's just the system that they were dealt, but they've got to square that circle in many cases.

That’s also brought up in the Catalina Sea Ranch problem, too. One other scene we'll talk to you about is when Tom Bell goes through all of the different offshore regulations back and forth, “we can't figure out how to regulate it so you can't sell your product.” Wait, what? Really crazy stuff? Well, Patrick, we're up against our first break. The time is flying by as we knew it would.

Ron’s Questions: Segment Two

Welcome back everybody. We're here with Patrick Reasonover, the producer of They Say It Can't Be Done. Patrick, it's great that you have a degree in philosophy because I want to ask you a big question. The documentary opens by saying, Throughout history, the idea was that God would bring the world to an end. But then after Hiroshima, man figured out that we might be able to do this ourselves. Why is it that doomsayers always underestimate the human ingenuity of man?

And human sanitation as well, not just horses, right? I thought that was a great analogy. One of my main takeaways from the documentary, and Jane Jacobs, Virginia Postrel, and George Gilder, have all written about this: that the real conflict is not the rich versus the poor, Democrats versus Republican, it's the past versus the future. Are we going to let the future unfold, from these innovators, and from these creators, because the status quo, obviously, has a lot of people who are invested in it, and they don't like change. And your documentary also does a great job with that, especially when it starts looking at the alternative foods, and the meat producers and the cattle producers.

And like Ed said, you focus in the documentary on four areas: regenerative medicine, , food, climate and Aquaculture. I'm just curious, how'd you land on those four, because I'm sure you had a much longer list?

That's great. The drug one was fascinating, the kid who you profiled who got the new bladder. And he said he was one out of 10 who has had that in 18 years, is that right?

And the 3-D printing of the ear and the other thing that blew me away, and you talked with Ed about this, which regulatory agency has jurisdiction. The FDA is great with food, cosmetics, and drugs, because those are mass market. But all of these organs, these are bespoke. So who has got regulatory Control. And if it is the FDA, are they really set up for it? Those are fascinating issues to contemplate.

I remember when I watched the documentary the first time, about three months ago, I remember talking with Ed and said, the biggest oxymoron I learned was the term “regulatory science.” Didn't Richard Feynman say anytime you have to qualify science, it's not science. And of course, the definition she gave for what “regulatory science” meant. It reminded me of Feyman’s line that “Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts.”

Good, I'm glad you did, because that was just really strange. I totally agree with what Ed said, too. The way it started, when I first watched it, you were quoting all these governmental officials, and I thought, “Oh, geez, it’s going to be one-sided. And then all of a sudden, you have all these economists and all these different think tank people that we recognize. But it's really well balanced. It's said throughout the documentary that there is a need for regulation, sometimes regulation can spur innovation. Do you have a personal opinion on where you come down between command-and-control regulation and performance-based regulation? Because I see a big difference between those two.

Yes, and we think reputation would probably be on that list as well. Well, Patrick, this is awesome. And really great job on the documentary, it's thoroughly enjoyable. So we will definitely link to it in the show notes and where you can get it.

Ed’s Questions: Segment Three

And we are back with Patrick Reasonover, the film is They Say It Can't Be Done. There’s also some screenings list and take a look at that. Patrick, I want to ask you straight up. Did you taste the alternative meat?

Amazing. Did you have any hesitancy in tasting it? Was there a little bit of like, wait, this is weird, or no?

Great, now I really am looking forward to that making it out to an actual product in the market. One of the things that your film really brings out, and Ron and I have talked about this on previous shows, is how often incumbents in the industry are behind the regulation, and big businesses actually love regulation. There's a real misperception out there, and the way it has manifested itself in this particular group, for the Just company, is that the meat growers, or the meat producers, want to define meat as harvested from animal flesh, even though chemically the stuff that Just is producing is the same. To me, it's the absolute inverse of the transubstantiation in the body of Christ. It's like the opposite of that. So talk a little bit about that, that big businesses, or regulations, are often done by the incumbents.

That was brought up briefly by one of the regulators, the Bootlegger Baptist coalition, which Ron and I have talked about, that's always very interesting to figure out who's the bootlegger, and who's the Baptist. I wanted to turn over to the regenerative medicine piece, and 3-D printing of organs. You talked about that with Ron, absolutely amazing. But I think we saw a little bit of this with regard to the COVID-19 vaccines, the same kind of regulatory problem with the FDA, that they're not set up for it. We have a vaccine, which is different from high blood pressure medication—we’ve got to test that to make sure it's safe, then does it actually reduce high blood pressure. But if you're producing a vaccine, test it, make sure it's safe, then get it out there. Tell people, “Hey, continue to social distance, we'll compare you to people who are not vaccinated at all.” And if it goes down, well, we know that the vaccine is effective, right? So that we can do this a lot quicker by what they call [human] challenge trials. I think that would be much more effective. So talk a little bit if you have a comment around that. What would be helpful there?

Right, it’s the seen versus the unseen. How absurd is it that they still are not technically approved [the COVID vaccines]. There's only a temporary authorization, by the time you get around to the actual approval, it'll be completely gone.

I see, yes, that's another ancillary benefit. That's wild. We had Ronald Bailey on the show [Episode #307], and I think this was the first time he actually said it publicly, and Reason magazine has just come out with a cover story on this, that this might be the last pandemic because of the mRNA technology platform that was developed, and they've been pretty successful with AIDS as well. Well, I only have two more minutes with you, and I wanted to ask you one more question about the Catalina Sea Ranch. Another thing from a regulatory perspective, the woman from the company says, the problem is that the testing requirement was done for a naturally recurring heard of muscles, which takes place over a much, much greater area then how they grow them. It sounded like the regulators just threw up their hands and gave up, saying, “Well, we don't know what to do. So you can't sell your product.” Is that what happened to them?

Really, that's great. Well it's bad for us, good for them. We are up against our last break here, thank you so much Patrick, Ron's going to take you the rest of the way, we really appreciate you appearing today.

Ron’s Questions: Segment Four

Welcome back, everybody, we're here with Patrick Reasonover, the producer of They Say It Can't Be Done. Patrick, on the climate change aspect, the taking of CO2 out of the atmosphere, that was just really awesome. His whole prospect of geoengineering. Are you optimistic that we will solve the climate challenge with innovation and technology?

You know, it's those types of innovations that make me think about the very small segment in the film about the losses from companies like Solyndra. I think there were 12, or 11 others that lost a total of $6.5 billion, and it made me think of George Gilder and his famous line that the dog is always the politicians’ best friend. If the government is going to pick winners and losers, it's always going to pick the past, it's never going to fund the entrepreneur with the crazy idea of sucking CO2 out of the atmosphere. And I just wonder about the technology and how much more we would have, and how much more innovation we would have, if the government wasn't subsidizing these relics?

On top of the don't bet against human ingenuity, I also thought one of the takeaways that your documentary made me think of was Hayek’s saying that the mind can't see its own advance. If you would have said to a regulator, what about Uber? Well, you're not supposed to take rides from strangers. The whole innovation of Uber and Airbnb sounds so counterintuitive. This tension between permissionless innovation and the precautionary principle, as Adam Thierer explains, it's on a spectrum. I just feel like we've been living under the precautionary principle for the last year with this COVID pandemic. Are you optimistic that we can go back to the permissionless innovation side?

Well, you're the exception to that Patrick. It's a great job [on the documentary] and it's got a fantastic message, and we'll do everything we can here to promote it. So, thank you so much for appearing on The Soul of Enterprise. Stay with us for a minute as we go through a live close. Ed, what do we have next week?

Next week, as we make our way through the rest of the Reagan speech writing team, we have the top dog, Tony Dolan.

Ron

Awesome, looking forward to it. See you in 167 hours.

Bonus Content is Available As Well

This week is bonus episode 339 - The Last Pandemic, Bourdain, and Profitable Solutions

Here are some links discussed in the bonus episode:

Click the “FANATIC” image to learn more about pricing and member benefits.

Greg Tirico

May 2, 2021

Episode #338: Interview with John Tamny, When Politicians Panicked

Greg Tirico

May 2, 2021

Before we get into how amazing this interview was, let’s learn a bit about more about John Tamny

John Tamny is Political Economy editor at Forbes, senior economic advisor to Toreador Research & Trading, and editor of RealClearMarkets.com (RCM). A spin-off of the policy website RealClearPolitics.com, RCM seeks to compile top-quality information and opinion about the stock markets and global economy.

Ron’s Questions: Segment One

Welcome to The Soul of Enterprise: Business in the Knowledge Economy, sponsored by Sage, transforming the way people think and work so that organizations can thrive. I’m Ron Baker, along with my good friend and VeraSage Institute colleague, Ed Kless, and on today's show, folks, we're talking with John Tammany, the author of When Politicians Panicked. Hey, Ed, how's it going?

Great Ron, looking forward to this show.

Ron

Me, too. Let's get John in here. I'm going to read his bio real quick. John Tamny is Political Economy editor at Forbes, editor of RealClearMarkets, VP at FreedomWorks’ Center for Economic Freedom, and libertarian star of RealClearMarkets, [and a senior economic adviser to Toreador Research and Trading (www.trtadvisors.com). His new book is When Politicians Panicked: The New Coronavirus, Expert Opinion, and a Tragic Lapse of Reason. Other books by Tamny include They're Both Wrong: A Policy Guide for America's Frustrated Independent Thinkers, The End of Work, about the exciting growth of jobs more and more of us love, Who Needs the Fed? and Popular Economics. John Tamny, welcome to The Soul of Enterprise.

I think we have a lot of mutual friends. We've had Jeffrey Tucker on. We've had George Gilder on three times. We've had Steven Landsberg, David Friedman, Mark Skousen. So we know a lot of people in common but, John, this this book of yours, When Politicians Panicked: The New Coronavirus, Expert Opinion, and a Tragic Lapse of Reason, this is a daring book. You essentially argue that we suffered not a medical crisis, but a political, economic and institutional crisis. How so?

You point out that even if the initial projections, like the Imperial College models, had been real, that the lockdown still wouldn't have been justified because you don't fight an illness with unemployment and bankruptcy and mass desperation. Why do you think people can't grasp that this is about tradeoffs?

It's a great point, I love that chapter. That thought experiment of this taking place back in 2000. And like you point out, for 63% of the workforce, work is a place, like it or not. And so are you saying, John, you don't say this directly in the book, but I get the sense, that this lockdown only happened because of our wealth.

Right now you say we ask too much of our experts, but we also rely on them too much. You continuously point out that our knowledge of COVID won't age well. Most of our medical knowledge has not aged well, if you look back through time. And then you make a really interesting point, or thought experiment: too bad Dr. Fauci wasn't a shill for Disney. Because if he was he would have paid for his mistakes.

I think you quote Jeffrey Tucker, or somebody, who says “The market pays for its mistakes, but politicians weaponize theirs.” And stupid should hurt, right? We analyze the market every single day with failure, and they pay for it. So it's a great point. The other thing that really blew my mind, John, from your book is you discuss a March 18, 2020 interview with FedEx founder and CEO, Fred Smith. Talk about that, because that was fascinating.

I love it. You pointed out that the old Soviet Union couldn't keep Chernobyl off the front pages. And that was back in the 1980s, when we didn't have the communication technology that we have now. And even the California Gold Rush in the 1800s brought folks from around the world. So word gets out and word certainly would have got out about that. Those are some great points. Well, John, unfortunately, we're up against our first break.

Ed’s Questions: Segment Two

Our guest today is John Tammany. His book is When Politicians Panicked: The New Coronavirus, Expert Opinion, and a Tragic Lapse of Reason. John, I just wanted to clarify something just because I want to I know what your position is, I think, and I want to articulate it. It's clear that Coronavirus was worse than the flu. It's pretty well documented that 10% to 13% of additional deaths, whether or not they were all attributed to the virus or not, I believe can be disputed. But there was something going on there. So you're not disputing this, you're not saying that taking precautions during a pandemic was unnecessary. But your subtle point is, you're saying that government telling us what those precautions were, when they should be in place, and for how long, was the problem. Did I state that well?

And the argument is, “But we had to protect them from themselves, John, don't you understand?”

I'm going to turn your attention a little bit to the beginning of the virus. We had Ronald Bailey on the show. And he shared with us that the Moderna company had taken the genome sequence that was sent to them by the Chinese on January 19 I believe it was, of 2020. And it had produced its vaccine and had the prototype in less than 48 hours, which leaves it at about January 21, of 2020. So before it even hit our radar, a vaccine had been developed. And the rest of the time was spent with delays in the approval process of the same government that shut us down. If there's anything about this that gets me violent, it's the fact that this vaccine was withheld from human beings for so long under the guise of we have to make sure it's safe for you.

Yes, and we can't know, you're certainly correct about that. But I think the thing that bothers me is the whole notion of even if you buy that the FDA should exist in the first place—and we've done shows with Mary Ruwart and we don't think it should exist—there's got to be a difference between approving a drug to reduce high blood pressure, which we all have because of this situation, and preventing you getting a disease and a vaccine, it’s a different framework, a different metaphor. Yes, you want to prove that it does what it says it's going to do, but a vaccine, once you prove that it's safe, you inject it into 1000 people, and if no one dies immediately, let it go. Let it out into the universe.

No, any company, once they establish themselves in the marketplace, like the idea of regulation? Facebook is all about regulation now. The last thing I want to talk to you about, and then I have some other questions on different subjects for the last segment. But are you concerned that politicians will panic again in the future, specifically over China, and maybe ask you this: Are they already?

Wow, all right. Well, hopefully, I'm going to take some breaths, turn it over to Ron, because we have to pay our bills, John, and I know you appreciate that.

Ron’s Questions: Segment Three

Welcome back, everybody. We're here with John Tamny, the author of When Politicians Panicked: The New Coronavirus, Expert Opinion, and a Tragic Lapse of Reason. John, one of the points you make beautifully in the book is that wealth creation has solved most of our medical issues, and you profile Rockefeller, Johns Hopkins, and you could go on and on with the Koch brothers, Sloan, etc. Talk about that, because I think that's a really important point that wealth is the ultimate get out of these crises.

You're so right about that. And the only known antidote to poverty is wealth creation. You also have another chapter, Chapter Five, where you say, “Don't insult recessions by referring to this as a recession.” Gene Epstein called this “The Great Suppression, which I've always loved. But then you argue in that chapter that recession is actually a sign of recovery. Explain that?

I love it. You say command and control actually asphyxiates an economy. There was no booms and busts in the Soviet Union, it's a great point. The other thing, talking about the bailouts, the PPP loans, all that junk that the government did with outrageous spending. You say—and this is pretty controversial, I think, to most people—far from being the engines of economic growth, small businesses and the jobs they create are most often a consequence of big business. Explain?

Absolutely right. You also talked about the GDP being double counting, which is why politicians love it, because of course it tracks consumption. But consumptions is the consequence of economic growth, not the cause of it. Again, why do so many people misunderstand this, even the popular press?

You just explained the supply-side mandate beautifully. I mean, consumption is the consequence of growth. And it's the easy part, like you say, production is harder. And I think it was George Gilder who wrote in his 1981 book, Wealth and Poverty. Even Marx understood this. After all, he didn't want to socialize the means of consumption [but rather the means of production].

John, are you worried about all the spending coming down the pike? I mean, not only what we spent last year, but what is being proposed for this year? It's in the trillions. It's unbelievable.

You make the point that if government allocates the capital, then the outrageous ideas are not going to get those dollars. And that's where you get the Peloton and our groceries delivered, and all those great things. And as [Jeff] Bezos said, “You know, I made billions of dollars of failures in Amazon.” Thank Heaven for those people,

Yes, the dynamism. You know, I think Gilder said the dog is the politician’s best friend. So knowledge is always about the past, but entrepreneurship is about the future. Well, John, this has just been great. Unfortunately, we're up against our next break.

Ed’s Questions: Segment Four

Author of When Politicians Panicked: The New Coronavirus, Expert Opinion, and a Tragic Lapse of Reason and They're Both Wrong: A Policy Guide for America's Frustrated Independent Thinkers is our guest today, John Tamny? John, I've got a question for you that's a little different angle, let's put it that way. George Gilder, who is a three-time guest of The Soul of Enterprise, wrote the Foreword to your book, so that's always appealing to us. But recently, you appeared on a video about six months ago for the Atlas Society. Ayn Rand used the occasion of her last public speech to take down George Gilder and his book, Wealth and Poverty. Square that up in your mind for me.

She really despised the concept that he said that profit is an index of our altruism.

I think Rand had a tendency to take words that had other definitions, define them the way she wanted to define them, and then eviscerate you if you didn't agree with her definition.

I agree. I think some of it is just the infighting among people who agree is sometimes worse than those outside of our thoughts. So along those lines, though, do you think we're in, as Ayn Rand would say, a sanction of the victim situation? Are we there right now?

She would say a sanction of the victim like that we because the question is, Why don’t we go to Galt’s Gulch? Why do you continue to write, why do Ron and I continue to do this show? Why, you know, shouldn't we just be going to Galt’s Gulch, because we're just feeding in to the very people who want to destroy us.

And let me beg your indulgence on a question that is, I think, a little bit negative. We have got about two minutes left. But I really wanted to ask you this. Why no inflation? Why haven't we seen inflation with all of the spending going on in Washington?

Fair enough. Great answer. We're already at the end of our show here. Ron, what do we have coming up next week?

Ron

We have Patrick Reasonover, the filmmaker of the documentary: “They say it can't be done.”

Well, I look forward to that. I'll see you in 167 hours.