The Results-Only Work Environment was co-created by our guest, Jody Thompson. Employees should be paid for results (output) rather than the number of hours worked.

A Bit More About Jody

Jody Thompson is a world-recognized future workplace expert and change-maker who has been featured on the covers of BusinessWeek, Workforce Management Magazine, HR Magazine, and HR Executive Magazine, as well as in the New York Times, TIME Magazine, USA Today, and on Good Morning America, CNBC, MSNBC and CNN. Jody is the co-creator of the proven management innovation system, the Results-Only Work Environment™ (ROWE™).

Here are Ron’s questions from the interview:

Welcome back Jody! You were on December 12, 2014 (Episode #24). How are you, personally, holding up during these interesting times?
You traveled quite a bit didn’t you?
Last time, we discussed your book with Cali Ressler, Why Work Sucks and How to Fix It. For new listeners, define the Results-Only Work Environment™ (ROWE™).
I don’t want to gloss over this. This is an important point. In your biography, it says that you are the co-creator of the proven management innovation system. Innovations in management have been far and few between. We’re still running on a lot of ideas developed in the 1880s to 1950. This is the great point Gary Hamel makes in his book, The Future of Management. Your innovation is an enormous accomplishment, so kudos for that; you’ve really contributed something that has legs for a long time.
When I first saw you and Cali Ressler speak, it was at a conference back in 2008, and in the restroom afterwards—where you get the real feedback from a presentation—people were saying things like, “Well, it’s interesting in theory, but it would never work in my organization.” How has ROWE™ been diffusing amongst the corporate world since the last time we spoke five-and-a-half years ago?
Here's a comment and question we got from one of our listeners, Wendy:
- First thanks to Jody and Ed and Ron who opened my mind to so many possibilities I’m so grateful.
- The question, now that organizations are forced to realize their thinking was flawed regarding the need to be in the office, how do you see the post Covid-19 landscape changing, do you anticipate that those organizations who insisted on face time will find justification to go back to their old ways?
You’re not just buying a block of time from an employee, but a group of work they can get done.
The whole presenteeism idea, I need to see you in a cubicle. It’s the illusion of control, isn’t it, for some of these managers?
In a knowledge economy, it’s much easier to slack off than if you worked in an auto factory. At least there, the person next to you on the line would know if you weren’t doing your job.
One of my favorite lines of yours: you manage the work, not the people.
Jody, I’ve been dying to ask you this question. I read the book by Eric Schmidt, How Google Works, and I’ve also read this about Apple, Pixar, and some other high-tech companies. They actually want people to be present because they think those serendipitous encounters lead to more innovation. I know we talk about working remotely, but ROWE™ is not just about working remotely. Wouldn’t ROWE™ work even in Google, or Apple, where your present but your focused on the outcomes?
I’m going to play the devil’s advocate, which is really hard since you’re preaching to the choir here. I can hear somebody say, “Yeah, but Jody, Apple and Google are two of the most successful companies on the planet (Pixar, too). Don’t you think they know what they are doing?
Gallup does that engagement poll every year, or every other, and they ask if employees feel connected to their organization’s strategies. So what you say has a lot of truth in it.
Another favorite term of mine that you developed—and the framework around it—can you describe is “Sludge.”
The other issue I’ve been curious about is government regulations. We have AB5 here in California that’s clamping down on Uber, Lyft, and even free-lance journalists. What about the regulations? Do you see the regulations loosening up to make ROWE™ more viable, such as overtime and other laws?
The whole work-life balance and flextime, it created a lot of confusion.
What has changed in your thinking since we last spoke?
Do you still hear the same objections? Have you heard any new objections? You had a whole chapter in the book of “Yeah, Buts.” Any new ones?
And you’ve shot all these objections down, and they keep coming back like termites!

…and here are Ed’s questions from the interview from Jody

V.I. Lenin, the communist leader, said “That nothing happens for decades and then decades happen in weeks.” I think that’s what has happened to many of us. Like many organizations, Sage had a tele-work policy, and there were some positions which there was no way you could do this job from home, too much confidential information, etc. Very real concerns, I don’t want to dismiss them. When this COVID-19 thing came down, we really made a fantastic transition in two weeks to all of our colleagues working from home. Isn’t it funny. How long are you involved in making these transitions, but when it’s got to get done, we can get it done in two weeks?
You define the position by the results you need to achieve, it doesn’t matter how or where you get it done, we really don’t care. We ask people what they would do if we took away timesheets, and they say “We’d actually have to be clear about what we wanted.” We’d have to have clarity around what we expected from people.
Nowhere has this been made more apparent to me than with my fourteen-year-old son, who has moved into “remote learning” (why can’t it be just learning?). He’s in the 8th grade and gets his assignments on Monday, and he’s finished by noon on Wednesday. “I told you this was a colossal waste of time, dad.” That’s an experience companies are going to see as well. What if people actually performed better during this time period, what are we going to do then?
We’re going to do a future show on Price’s Law: In any system, the square root of the number of people do half the work. For example, in professional hockey, if you take the square root of the number of players in the NHL, that number of people score 50% or more of the goals. This pattern is repeated over and over, with composers, business organizations. It’s a flip on the Pareto principal, the 80/20 rule. Wouldn’t ROWE™ be a way to potentially smooth out Price’s Law a bit, since the focus in getting the work done, and working together to achieve results.
Here was the key learning for me: it begins in school. There’s absolutely presenteeism there.
With all this COVID-19 stuff that has happened, is there a tiny part of you that’s saying, “Told you so”?
Wendy has a follow-up question: could you address the notion of workplace specific roles. She thinks a lot of people get confused that ROWE™ means that nobody comes to work anymore.
What about the notion of workplace roles. There are certain roles that require some kind of presence at a particular place and time. For example, if you’re working in retail, you have to be at the store to get your work done?
One of the most important take-aways for me is not only do people need freedom—autonomy as you say—but they also participate in accountability as well. Peter Block—another guest on the show, see Episode #183—accountability and freedom are really the same thing. We choose to be accountable, it can’t be imposed on us. When people choose to be accountable, it really becomes clear that you have to produce the results, and if you don’t, you can’t participate in the payroll program.
All this leads to trust, right? Another maverick is Ricardo Semler out of Brazil, who wrote a book called Maverick. He has a great story about how when he gives out credit cards to his employees he says they don’t audit them, we just trust you. If you need something to do your job better, just buy it. People think he’s nuts, but employees can do millions of dollars of damage in a customer relationship, but I’m not going to trust them with a $500 monitor if they need it?

Bonus Content is Available As Well

Did you know that each week after our live show, Ron and Ed take to the microphone for a bonus show? Typically, this bonus show is an extension of the live show topic (sometimes even with the same guest) and a few other pieces of news, current events, or things that have caught our attention.

Click the “FANATIC” image to learn more about pricing and member benefits.

Here are some of the topics and links Ron and Ed discussed during the bonus episode this past week: