James R. Harrigan is the co-author of Cooperation & Coercion: How Busybodies Became Busybullies and What that Means for Economics and Politics, along with Antony Davies (interviewed in episode #351). We were thrilled when James agreed to join us on this episode of The Soul of Enterprise. Below are full show notes including the questions prepared by Ron and Ed and links to James’ work.

But first a bit more about James Harrigan…
James R. Harrigan is the F.A. Hayek Distinguished Fellow at the Foundation for Economic Education. He is also co-host of the Words & Numbers podcast. Dr. Harrigan was previously Dean of the American University of Iraq-Sulaimani, and later served as Director of Academic Programs at the Institute for Humane Studies and Strata, where he was also Senior Research Fellow. He was also Managing Director of the Center for Philosophy of Freedom at the University of Arizona. He has written extensively for the popular press, with articles appearing in the Wall Street Journal, USA Today, U.S. News and World Report, and a host of other outlets. His current work focuses on the intersections between political economy, public policy, and political philosophy.

Ed’s Questions: Segment One

Welcome to The Soul of Enterprise: Business in the Knowledge Economy, sponsored by Sage, transforming the way people think and work so their organizations can thrive. I'm Ed Kless with my friend and co-host, Ron Baker, and on today's show we are pleased to have our interview with James R. Harrigan. Hey, Ron, how's it going?

Ron

I'm great, Ed. I'm looking forward to this. You know, when Antony Davies was on a few weeks ago [Episode #351], we did not read his book in anticipation of that show, which I felt really guilty about. The book is Cooperation & Coercion: How Busybodies Became Busybullies and What that Means for Economics and Politics, but I have read it now. So this will be great, because James tells us, of the two, he's the smarter one.

James Harrigan

That is correct. And let's not call it his book anymore.

Well, by way of quick introduction, James R. Harrigan is the F.A. Hayek Distinguished Fellow—that’s Friedrich, not Selma, by the way—at the Foundation for Economic Education and the senior editor for the American Institute of Economics Research. He's the co-host of the Words and Numbers podcast [with Antony Davies]. He was previously Dean of the American University of Iraq-Sulaimani, and later served as Director of Academic Programs at the Institute for Humane Studies and Strata, where he was also Senior Research Fellow. He’s written extensively for the popular press, with articles in the Wall Street Journal, USA Today, among others. His current work focuses on the intersections between political economy, public policy, and political philosophy, and his book today, which we're going to talk about, is Cooperation & Coercion: How Busybodies Became Busybullies and What that Means for Economics and Politics. Welcome to The Soul of Enterprise, James R. Harrigan

I'm a pretty quick reader because I'm from New York originally, so we get it in pretty quickly. So I had to make the Selma Hayek joke, I can't resist it.

Well, fill in some blanks. Where did you grow up, what led you both into and then out of academia?

Well we certainly found your book interesting as well. The book, again, is Cooperation & Coercion: How Busybodies Became Busybullies and What that Means for Economics and Politics. And Anthony, I'm sorry, James. Sorry, really big problem there! I have to ask you about this. It's chapter four of the book, but I'm going to jump into it because it's the lead in the news this week. Quoting from the book, “We have also brought our troops planes and drones to many nations. And the killing we have done in those places, some warranted, some not, will doubtlessly result in the kind of hatred for the United States that have led to the attacks that fired up this merry-go-round in the first place. Let's talk a little bit about that.

Yeah, by my calculation, that I heard on a podcast, on the low side we have spent $150 million a day, each day, for 20 years. Now, you probably recall a couple of weeks ago when people freaked out over billionaires spending their own money to go to space. And yet $150 million a day, each day, for 20 years. I can't reconcile that in my brain.

And that's one of the thoughts. Is there really an Afghani perspective? Is there really an Iraqi perspective? These are not nations like Japan and Germany were that we were able to rebuild in the sense that they had joined the quote, “community of nations” already. These are constructs. Afghanistan is a construct. It's not a real nation. Ouch.

One of the lines I've said to people is look, the folks in Afghanistan have been throwing rocks at each other for millennia. The mistake that we and the Soviets made was giving them anything more than rocks.

Yeah, unfortunately, I agree. Hopefully in my next segment with you it'll be a little bit more joyful but we're up against our first break.

Ron’s Questions: Segment Two

Welcome back, everybody, we're here with James R. Harrigan. He's the author of Cooperation & Coercion: How Busybodies Became Busybullies and What that Means for Economics and Politics. James, you say there's only two ways humans can work together: They can either cooperate, or they can coerce one another. The first is voluntary, and the second is involuntary. Explain that.

And James, one of the reasons this matters, and it matters, I know, for a lot of reasons, liberty, freedom, all of that. But one of the things you point out is that when you look at poor countries that rely more on cooperation than coercion, they have less poverty and less inequality. And I thought that was some really interesting empirical evidence, and it's kind of overwhelming, isn't it?

Yeah, I'm in awe of things like that. When you really, like you say, step back and think about it. I mean, the fact that I can go to another country whose language I don't speak, hand somebody a plastic card with my name on it, and they give me car—a car! That just kind of astonishing when you think about it.

I have to ask, who was the concert?

James

Oh, it's the greatest band in the world. I'm happy you asked. It's an English neo-progressive band called Marillion. If you could imagine Pink Floyd and Radiohead ground up into a fine paste, this is what it would sound like. I refer to it as the sound of Gods laughter. It's just that good.

Ron

Wow. It must be if you're willing to fly to Poland.

James, this is kind of unfair, I think we've only got about a minute-and-a-half, maybe two, left. But you talk about the knowledge problem. And I love it because you quote the guy from The Toaster Project, the guy who tried to make his own toaster and then the guy who made his own chicken sandwich. Those, like I, Pencil, are great stories. Why haven't we learned this lesson? Why do we keep asking government to do things and solve problems when nobody knows how to make a pencil?

We get the government we deserve. Well, James, this is just flying by and this is wonderful.

Ed’s Questions: Segment Three

And we are back with James R. Harrigan. The book is Cooperation & Coercion: How Busybodies Became Busybullies and What that Means for Economics and Politics. James, I wanted to ask you about something related to the book, but also in current events as well. And that is this notion of mask mandates. I know from listening to your show that, like Ron and myself, you're neither a maskafile nor a maskaphobe. So we're who are somewhere in the middle. But a federal mandate wouldn't make much sense because of the principles of federalism, and we wouldn't want to push that down. But here in the state of Texas, the governor has issued an edict that state agencies cannot, and local governments cannot, issue their own mandates. Does that violate the principle of subsidiarity, which would say the local government would be the best place to make that decision? Talk about the interplay between those two things.

The principle of subsidiarity is down to my household, because we are in a school district in Texas that is not requiring masks. I have my son who does not wear a mask and my daughter, who's four years younger, feels very comfortable and prefers wearing a mask. So guess what, we're letting them make the decision that works for them. As parents, that's what we're doing. So because, as you said, I don't even know what's right for me most of the time. So I'm going to jump subjects on you, I apologize. But this is one of my favorite historical asterisks, and that is the original First Amendment, or the First Article which was put forward, which is known as The Congressional Apportionment Amendment, which if enacted would increase the size of Congress from 435 to roughly 6000 Members today.

Interesting. My fantasy is that somehow more states ratified this original First Amendment, and we have to somehow deal with it. Just throw utter chaos into the situation. But I think you're right, I think that the better play for us all is more federalism. But as soon as you start to bring that up you get basically accused of being pro-slavery, and I’m like, wait, wait.

And interestingly enough, my understanding is this is one of the few times that George Washington actually broke his silence, and was very much in favor of this apportionment amendment, something that he actually believed in?

I heard this first on Jonah Goldberg’s podcast [The Remnant]. He was quoting somebody else, and I can't remember who he says said it, but what we should do is just change the pronunciation of the word “president” to “president.” That'll be a reminder that that is all they're supposed to do is preside.

Well, we are up against our last break. This has been great. So fun to have you on James. Ron's going to take you home in the last segment, but I just wanted to say thanks.

Ron’s Questions: Segment Four

Welcome back, everybody, we're here with James R. Harrigan, and the book is Cooperation & Coercion: How Busybodies Became Busybullies and What that Means for Economics and Politics. James, I'm going to tap into your political philosophy and political science brain. I'm going to give you a series of rapid questions somewhat, because we've only got about seven or eight minutes. In the book, you talk about our propensity for having a war on nouns—drugs, poverty, terrorism. And I just want to ask you about poverty. It seems like on the war on poverty, poverty has won. Why do you think the people don't understand that the only antidote to poverty is wealth creation?

James, what's your position on the universal basic income? [See Episode #95].

Do you worry about Congress's impotence? I mean specifically, their willingness to give power to the president and bureaucracy, and just not make any major decisions?

George Will wrote a book in 1992 called Restoration: Congress, Term Limits and the Recovery of Deliberative Democracy. And it was one of the best arguments I've ever read for term limits at the federal level. Where do you stand on term limits?

Would you see any benefits to term limits if they did do it?

We’ve got about one minute, James, last question. What about a state constitutional convention?

Well, James Harrigan, thank you so much for appearing on The Soul of Enterprise, your book Cooperation & Coercion: How Busybodies Became Busybullies and What that Means for Economics and Politics is fantastic, a great read. We're going to link up everything that you guys have done up on the show notes. And Ed, what do we have coming up next week?

Next week, Ron, we are going to talk about a subject that is near and dear to both our hearts. We are going to talk about regulation versus reputation, which is the more important?

Ron

Excellent, I'll see 167 hours.

Bonus Content is Available As Well

Did you know that each week after our live show, Ron and Ed take to the microphone for a bonus show? Typically, this bonus show is an extension of the live show topic (sometimes even with the same guest) and a few other pieces of news, current events, or things that have caught our attention.

This past week was Bonus Episode 354 - “Suggested changes for Congresscritters”. Here are a few links discussed:

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