Ronald
Reagan: Like a chrysalis,
we're emerging from the economy of the industrial revolution, an economy
confined to and limited by the earth's physical resources, into the economy in
mind, in which there are no bounds on human imagination, and the freedom to
create is the most precious natural resource.
Ron Baker: Welcome to the Soul of
Enterprise: Business and the Knowledge Economy, sponsored by Sage, energizing
business builders around the world through the imagination of our people and
the power of technology. I'm Ron Baker, along with my good friend and VeraSage
Institute colleague Ed Kless, and on today's show folks, we are talking about
life after Google, with the one and only George Gilder, my mentor for 37 years.
George, welcome back to the Soul of Enterprise, and thank you so much.
George
Gilder: Oh, it's great to be
on.
Ron Baker: I have to thank you on
behalf of me and Ed for sending us your book a week before it was published
[July 17], which we devoured, and just because we know you don't like the free
model, we've gone out and bought multiple copies, so I just want-
George
Gilder: Oh, thank you so much.
I've been quoting you. I don't know how many of my books quotes you, but a
couple anyway.
Ron Baker: Well, you've been my 37-year
mentor, George.
George Gilder: Okay.
Ron Baker: So, getting quoted in your
book Knowledge and Power was one of
the highlights of my life. I'm even going to dispense with reading your
biography. I'm just going to direct people back to show number 60, which we did with you on
September 11, 2015, and you've taken us from the Microcosm to the Telecosm, and now the Cryptocosm,
and all the while, you love to cite Carver Mead, who says, "Listen to the
technology and find out what it's telling us." George, what's the
technology telling you about Google?
George
Gilder: It's telling us ...
It's expressing Bell's Law, and Bell's Law is that every 10 years or so, the
accumulation of Moore's Law doubling its computer power every couple of years
leads to a hundred fold or more rise of computing
power, which entails and mandates an entirely new computer architecture. Back
in 2006, in Wired Magazine, I wrote a tribute to the Google's launch of the era
of cloud computing and machine learning and data warehouses. It's now 10 years,
12 years have passed, and Bell's Law is tolling for Google today, because
Google has all these big white elephants, bureaucratic data centers all around
the globe, and they're becoming obsolete.
Ron Baker: You talk about Google having
a materialist, and I love this, neo-Marxist, Burning Man ideology that we
humans are nothing but an algorithm, and you reject this, and I just love how
you bring in the whole William F. Buckley, "Don't let them immanentize the
Eschaton." Can you kind of explain that?
George
Gilder: Well, a lot of people
don't understand that [Karl] Marx's real error wasn't the celebration of
violence or class war or whatever. It was to imagine that the industrial
revolution of the 19th century, all those steam engines and railroads and
electric turbines and dark, satanic mills were the ultimate achievement of
human productivity, and that in the future, the challenge would not be the
creation of wealth, but rather the distribution of wealth, and that was the
original Marxism. The new Marxism of Google is to say that artificial
intelligence, the machine learning, the robotics, the algorithmic biology, all
these ... the search engines, all these capabilities are kind of the ultimate
human achievement. Eschaton and Bill Buckley's words, or [Eric] Voegelin’s words, a final thing, and that in the future, we
can all retire to beaches and receive the guaranteed annual income while Larry
Page and Sergey Brin get on a rocket and go out to
some remote planet with Elon Musk in a winner-take-all universe. That's sort of
the new Eschaton, the new Marxism, the Google Marxism.
Ron Baker: You talk about the
priesthood of AI [Artificial Intelligence] and supposedly how it's going to
take over the world, destroy all of our jobs, and yet Silicon Valley can't
figure out passwords. I love the rant in one of the early chapters in your book
where you talk about passwords and asking you for your mother's maiden name and
what street you used to live on as a kid. What is the problem here?
George
Gilder: I keep forgetting,
really ... I discover that my answers change as I grow older. What I really
like is when they pop up, give me your ... one of those little boxes, scantily
clad boxes pop up in the middle of your screen saying please insert your
password, as if you only have one password rather than hundreds of passwords,
many of which a combinatorial explosion can paralyze your whole life. An
epidemic of passwords, and they want one. It's like you have extrasensory
perception or maybe artificial intelligence to identify precisely the password
that's relevant in any particular situation. Every webpage imagines that it's
the apple of your eye.
Ron Baker: You talk about how security
is not an app, it's really an architecture, or at least should be, it's one of
the laws or the overriding laws of the cryptocosm, do
you think that Silicon Valley has just given up on this issue?
George
Gilder: I think that, yes,
they regard security as sort of a retro fix or a patch or a video game, to be
conducted by SWAT teams of brilliant pony tailed nerds who crack down on
hackers. It's a really infantile view of security. Security is an architecture.
It's the way you organize the network with a ground state of factuality and
substance. If you don't have a ground state, you really don't have a network.
You become dependent on all these Leviathan companies at the top.
Ron Baker: Right.
George
Gilder: Like Google-
Ron Baker: One of the things that just
really struck me about reading the book was when you talked about Kurt Gödel, and the halting problem, but his
basic premise was how every logical system depends on propositions that cannot
be proved within the system itself, that computers require Oracles to give them
instructions. He refuted the whole premise of AI, didn't he, back in, what was
it, the '30s?
George
Gilder: 1931, and he's the one
who persuaded von Neumann, John von Neumann, who was the greatest figure in
computer science of the 20th century. It was Gödel who persuaded [John] von Neumann back in 1931 to abandon
mathematical physics, essentially, and proceed to computer science. The
computer science that Gödel launched, he essentially used a software program to
prove that all logical systems are necessarily dependent on axioms that cannot
be proved within the system. Alan Turing, who conceived the Turing Machine as the ultimate computer, proved
the same point for computers by saying that they're necessarily dependent on
oracles, and that's why [Larry] Ellison named Oracle Computer after Turing's Oracle,
that the oracles have to be us. They have to be human minds that program the
computers. The computers cannot run off and program themselves. They're
necessarily dependent on informative, creative, imaginative minds.
Ron Baker: Right. If that's been
proven, why is it that really smart people, and I know you address this in the
book, like [Elon] Musk and [Sergey] Brin, and [Larry]
Page and all that, why don't they see this?
George
Gilder: I think they're
captivated by their immediate technologies, and they never really address the
deeper implications. It's amazing to read these people. My favorite is Ray Kurzweil, who's a friend of mine, and a
genius, and he wrote a book called How To Create a Mind, and it's a brilliant book. It
brilliantly explains how to create a speech recognizing, pattern recognizing,
correlating machine of the computer, but he kind of explains away
consciousness. But if you don't understand consciousness, you don't understand
mind at all. They imagine that consciousness is a side effect of all these
machine learning programs that they understand, but the consciousness is the
source of thought. It's not an epiphenomenon or side effect of thought. It is
the origin of thought. If they don't understand consciousness or believe that
consciousness is something that's going to emerge magically from their
machines, it shows they aren't even trying to understand true intellect.
Ron Baker: You say that consciousness
depends on faith, the ability to act without full knowledge and the ability to
be surprised, and to surprise, and I just ... This is kind of an out there question, but how much of this is just due to
secularism or atheism?
George Gilder: Well, it's hard to say, but G.K. Chesterton made what I regard to be a wonderful
observation among many wonderful observations when he said that people who
don't believe in God don't believe in nothing, they believe in anything. They
grope, and that's what Silicon Valley is doing in its current nervous
breakdown. It's groping for explanations of the world that correlate with their
own desiccated secular vision of multiple parallel universes, infinite numbers
of universes they have to postulate, in order to explain our one unique
singular universe. Many people in Silicon Valley will earnestly tell you that
in all likelihood we're just part of some alien race's, some advanced alien
race's simulation, 3-D simulation. They actually believe in the material of
superstition, that human beings are nothing but ... and nothingbutery
is another concept of Chesterton, I believe, that we're nothing but material,
we're nothing but chemistry and physics. It's what I call the flat universe
theory.
Ron Baker: Well, George, this is great,
and I know Ed wants to pick up on the consciousness question with you, but
unfortunately, we're up against our first break, and folks, I'd like to remind
you, check out www.thesoulofenterprise.com. We will post our full interview
with George Gilder along with books and links to where you can find more of his
work, and now we want to hear from our sponsor, Leading Results.
Ed Kless: And Ed Kless here on The
Soul of Enterprise, and we are with George Gilder, author of the fantastic book
Life After
Google. George, I want to just pick up where Ron left off, and from a
quote from the book, it says, "The blind spot of AI is that consciousness
does not emerge from thought. It is the source of it." Are you aware of
the work of a guy by the name of ... I think he's done
a TED
Talk, Donald Hoffman, who has posited-
George
Gilder: No.
Ed Kless: ... in proof that-
George
Gilder: Well, is Donald
Hoffman ... Who is he? I may have heard of Donald Hoffman.
Ed Kless: Yeah. He did a TED Talk
about three or four years ago, and his book has been anticipated since 2017. It
hasn't come out yet, but his position is basically ... He goes through this
mathematically, that it's consciousness that creates the reality that we see,
and he's got a really-
George
Gilder: Yeah.
Ed Kless: It's an interesting
position.
George
Gilder: Yeah. Well, I think
it's an interesting position if it understands that our consciousness is a reflection of the greater cosmic consciousness that we
call God. The idea that somehow our consciousness is kind of an artificial
construct doesn't appeal to me, but I do believe we are in a hierarchical
universe, and our consciousness reflects a larger consciousness of our creator
in some sense. This is not some religious affirmation, essentially. It's a
scientific observation that corresponds to all the evidence we experience,
which is that consciousness is a fundamental property of life, and infuses the
universe with life, and that human beings in some sense are created in the
image of their creator.
Ed Kless: Yeah. He, at least in the
interviews that I've seen, kind of takes an agnostic approach to that, but I
suspect, just in seeing him, that he would agree that it's a greater
consciousness that has started all of this. So, it's pretty interesting.
George
Gilder: It all depends what
kind of thinking you're doing. Human beings only live for awhile,
and we only have a limited perspective. So, if we're going to make any serious
decisions or choose any particular path of behavior, we got to have faith, and
we have to act in the faith of incomplete knowledge. That's just the
predicament of the human being. So, I think ... So, to say that you're
agnostic, of course we're agnostic, we can't really know of the mind of God in
a profound way, at least short of some ecstatic revelation, but at the same
time, we have to act in the darkness of time, and in order to act in the darkness of time, we have to have what's called
faith, and faith precedes knowledge. Faith precedes action. Faith precedes
meaning.
George
Gilder: This is really what Gödel
discovered. He discovered you can't have any logical, rational systems without
faith. You've got to have some actions outside the system that can't be proven
within the system. And then, in case Gödel wasn't enough and von Neumann wasn't
enough, two of the great minds of the 20th century, Alan Turing went and proved
it again, and then Gregory Chaitin went and proved it [with] algorithmic information theory,
and Claude Shannon essentially proved it again. They
all have shown that this dream of a hermetically sealed package of complete
knowledge imparted through some mathematical set of algorithms is delusional,
and people who believe in it are victims of Chestertonian
delusion.
Ed Kless: It's interesting. When
I've been discussing your book with, well, basically everybody I run into for
the last month or so, and one of the things that does come up on more than one
occasion is somebody said, "Well, what about IBM's Watson and its ability
to create a recipe? Wasn't that creative?" As I was thinking about it, I
said, well, I guess it was creative, but at some point
somewhere in the code, in the innards of Watson somewhere, there was an if/then
statement coded by some human being that said if cilantro seems to be a good
ingredient, include it. That's how I kind of meant it to understand. There has
to have been a decision that was pre-made that ultimately manifested itself in
what the decision that Watson makes.
George
Gilder: Well, they had to
choose a bounded area of deterministic behavior, and of course, the computer
can run through a set of algorithms that covers some defined set of degrees of
freedom. It's a deterministic domain. Chess, for example, or Go, or one of these games that
computers can play, and are functioning in a deterministic domain, where
there's one answer in essence. Of course they can
explore a deterministic regime, but creativity, by definition, comes as a
surprise to us. It's the unexpected bits that constitute information, and
Claude Shannon's information theory that's the foundation of computer science
and the internet. This is ... It's unexpected bits, surprisal, and if a machine starts surprising you, it's
breaking down…surprise is bad news in a machine.
Ed Kless: Yes.
George
Gilder: The Google philosophy,
the way they think they compensate for determinism of their programs, is to
insert randomness, but randomness subtracts information. It doesn't add
information. It doesn't provide imagination. It doesn't endow creation. So, it
just ... wherever they go, they end up in the Gödel trap, and when they're in
the Gödel trap, they fantasize infinite multiple universes and simulations of
aliens and other bizarre illusions.
Ed Kless: I love that. I wanted to
ask you, we've got about three minutes until our next break, and picking up on
the non-deterministic piece, you talk about this in the book, that applying it
to self-driving cars, that this technology would ultimately fail without new
sensory and human guidance. You talk about so many technologies in the book,
but you don't really address this. Do you think that we will have fully
autonomous vehicles in relatively short order, or is that not something that's
ever going to come, or is driving deterministic enough, I guess is the
question?
George
Gilder: We can certainly ...
if we create a bounded arena for these cars to function within, we can
obviously have self-driving vehicles. We already have self-driving vehicles in
lots of private kinds of parks and home residential neighborhoods. If you have
essentially a controlled environment, you can have self-driving cars. As the self-driving
technology improves, and the point I make in Life After Google is the improvement will not just be in machine
learning. It's not just that the cars learn how to drive. It's also that the
technologies of Lidar have to improve as well, and
that's a major challenge. One of the companies I describe, Luminar, which is started by a [Peter]Thiel fellow, lured out of college by a
$100,000 Thiel Fellowship, a guy named Austin Russel, launched the company called Luminar, which is improving the effectiveness of Lidar by a
factor of 50 or something, which gives the car as much as seven seconds to
respond to unexpected events. It takes that kind of improvement in hardware in
order to make it possible for these software programs to arrive at coherent
solutions.
Ed Kless: Yeah. It's like-
George
Gilder: It's not something
that's going to happen all at once. It's something that will incrementally
occur as cars gain increasing capabilities, but it doesn't usurp human minds.
It's not a singularity that this displaces human beings. It's just, as
technology improves, human productivity increases, and human beings become more
employable, not less employable. This is the whole history of technology. It's
as if these people have amnesia of some kind and can't understand the manifest
experience of hundreds of years of human creativity and progress.
Ed Kless: Yeah. No, absolutely.
George
Gilder: Jobs get better, and
more productive, and safer, and more creative, and more interesting, all the
time.
Ed Kless: No, absolutely. Great
stuff. Well, we're up against our break at the bottom of the hour. We want to
remind you that you can contact Ron or me by sending an email to
asktsoe@verasage.com. The website, www.thesoulofenterprise.com, with show notes
and also preview shows, as well as the one that we did with George Gilder back on
September 11th of 2015 I think it was, but now a word from our sponsor.
Ron Baker: All right. Well, welcome
back, everybody. We're here with the author of Life After Google, George Gilder, and George, you do a really good job
in the book of taking down the whole free model of Google. Not only does it
give them an incentive not to worry about security, because who wants to steal
free stuff, but it's not free, because we're not paying in money, but we're
paying with our time. It's kind of like a barter system that we've left behind
in the Stone Age, as you point out. It's a real problem, isn't it? Not to have
customers.
George
Gilder: Yeah. Well, I think
it's a problem for Google. It's a problem for Google that they don't have
prices. It's a problem for Google that they don't have lessons that a real
market imparts to companies and guides their investment and their future. It's
a problem for Google that they don't have real customers, that ... to whom they
have obligations and incur liabilities. It's a problem for Google that they
don't have the whole process ... They
talk about machine learning all the time, but the fact is that machines can't
learn, but humans can, that in order
for humans to learn, they’ve got to have experiments that can go wrong.
They can't have a guaranteed world where everything's free and no learning
experiences really can arise.
George
Gilder: My whole theory, the
information theory of capitalism, is that wealth is knowledge, and we know that
because the conservation law says that all matter that ever existed, existed in
the Stone Age. The difference between our age and the Stone Age is entirely the
growth in knowledge, and if knowledge is
wealth, then economic growth is learning, and that's what it is. So, if you
prohibit learning by not having any prices for your goods or any real
relationships with your customers, or you restrict your customers to a few big
corporate offices that buy your advertising or even hundreds of thousands of
small businesses who purchase your advertising, you restrict your market and
you restrict your learning process, and that is what will ultimately bring
Google down, because there are all these companies out there that are
confronting real markets and getting real price signals and conducting real
Popperian experiments [named after Karl Popper], which yield new knowledge.
Ron Baker: Right. No, your equation
there is brilliant, wealth is knowledge, growth is learning. So, okay, Google's
doomed. Its business model is doomed because of this new layer of the internet
that we're going to get because of the cryptocosm,
and I love how you profile some of the 1517 fund entrepreneurs and the Thiel Fellows,
and you talk about all this new technology that's coming out that I guess will
be the new architecture of the blockchain economy. Can you kind of unpack that?
You say the clouds are going to disburse across the sky and everything's going
to move down to the decentralized blockchain. Is that the essence of the cryptocosm?
George
Gilder: Yep. The key point is
that in order for capitalism to really
to work, you have to maximize the creativity of individual human minds, and
individual human minds are disbursed, and we're distributed, we're separate.
We function largely peer to peer. Internet architecture that corresponds to the
disbursal of human intelligence, of humans' minds, is the blockchain and all
the other technologies that have erupted around the blockchain and some of them
even obviate specific blockchain structures, they have other similar
structures, but they all are identifiable by their disbursal of information and
intelligence. They don't try to create a porous internet stack, where all the
knowledge and money rise to the top. Instead, you have a block stack, you have
a system at the bottom that retains personal data, personal content, personal
creativity, on the foundation. This is the foundation of security that the
blockchain offers for a new internet that correlates with the very nature of
the human mind, and its disbursal around the planet.
Ron Baker: And George, when you look at
all these entrepreneurs that you profile, they're all really young. Some are
college dropouts, Thiel Fellowship winners. They all seem to be in their 20s. I
know we've talked about Charles Murray's book, Human Accomplishment. One of the striking things in
that book is all of these great leaps forward in learning take place from
people below the age of 40. Is there something to that still, that innovation
is really a young person's game?
George
Gilder: It is, because
anybody's capabilities are limited, and you gain your power over the
environment by focusing, and by developing specific modes of behavior, habits
and disciplines. The new generations stand on the shoulders of the old
generations, but it's hard to stand on your own shoulders. So, it is true that
Thiel, Peter Thiel, had a brilliant insight when he decided to lure the best
entrepreneurs out of college before they graduated, because these colleges were
becoming sclerotic and bureaucratic and sort of houses of political correctness,
chambers of diversity, politics ... It's just no longer serving the future,
sort of clamping down on new generations, stultifying new generations.
George
Gilder: One of the first Thiel
Fellows was Vitalik Buterin, who created a new blockchain,
imitating the Bitcoin blockchain with a number of improvements that allowed it
to be extended into a new global computer platform that could use a new
software language called Solidity to create smart contracts that
could function with a new currency called Ether, which in turn fed on a new value
metric called Gas and this Ethereum blockchain has
already accumulated some $20 billion of new ICOs, initial coin offerings, and
people keep stressing that 46% of them have already gone bust and a number of
them are frauds, and yeah, there's a lot of chaos and a lot of mischief in the
blockchain world, but there's also an efflorescence of creativity that closely
resembles the initial efflorescence of creativity around the internet itself.
It really constitutes a new architecture for the internet based on a new
concept of security, which is derived from distributing information everywhere
rather than concentrating it at the top in a few giant data centers.
Ron Baker: George, is it safe to say
that you have more faith in virtual reality than artificial intelligence,
because VR tends to augment the human?
George
Gilder: Yeah. The virtual
reality challenge is trying to accommodate human consciousness and allow us to
see the universe in new ways. Photons ... Virtual reality is essentially
manipulating photons and Jules Urbach, who as the
founder of OTOY Corporation with me and Alissa Grainger and
Ari Emanuel and a bunch of people, but Jules is really the genius. He points
out that the big bang was an explosion of photons and what virtual reality has
to do is simulate little bangs of photonic explosions that impinge on human
consciousness and give us a new perspective on reality. That's a great
challenge. It doesn't try to usurp human minds. It tries to serve human minds.
Ron Baker: Right, right. My last
question, George, and then Ed will take us out, but Google is full of really
smart people, so I have a two-part question for you. One, have they invited you
internally to speak to them about this book?
George
Gilder: No, they haven't. I've
sent messages. I think they'll get around to it. I really believe that the word
of this book and ... It's been the number one book in digital currencies and
the number one book in computer science theory or whatever on Amazon for much
of the last month, and I don't think it's entirely a coincidence that Google
has been yacking about their concern with security increasingly as the days
pass. We'll see. I expect to speak at Google at some point. I don't think that
they're that intimidated that they think they can't learn from me, but maybe
... We'll see. It'll be interesting. I respect them tremendously. I think
they're the dominant company of this era. They've made a huge contribution.
They just have exaggerated the significance of their contribution. They've
tried to inflate it into an Eschaton, a final thing, and it isn't. It isn't.
Artificial intelligence does not eclipse human intelligence at all. It has
nothing to do with human intelligence, really. It's an extended function.
Ron Baker: Right, right. Well, that's a
great note for me to leave it on, George, as we enter our next break, and
folks, like to remind you if you want to send Ed or myself an email, send it to
asktsoe@verasage.com, and now we want to hear from our sponsor, Sage.
Ed Kless: And we are back with The
Soul of Enterprise. Unfortunately, we have lost George Gilder. Ron.
Ron Baker: Yes. Oh, he's back.
Ed Kless: Oh, he's back. He's back.
Okay. Hi, George, you back?
George
Gilder: Yeah, I'm back. I
don't know what happened.
Ed Kless: All right, awesome. No,
clearly Google does not want this interview to continue. That's what it is. In
all seriousness, I'm going to take you through to the last segment. We've got
about six minutes left.
George
Gilder: Okay.
Ed Kless: A couple things you and
Ron were talking about got me to thinking. What are your thoughts on what Apple
is doing from a security standpoint? They at least seem to be attempting to
shift it down to the device, to make it a little bit more personal, a little
bit more human. Do you think that's going to be an assistance in the future, or
do you think that that's going to be blown up with the whole new security realm
itself?
George
Gilder: Well, the first place,
I think Apple and Amazon are both different from Google in that they spurn the
free temptation. They are brilliant at collecting money from real customers. I
think they're not part of this Google system of the world in the same way. That
said, I think Apple is deteriorating, to some degree. Their constant passwords,
their PINs, their constant harassment of their users, their increasing closure
of their systems, where you can't repair them. The right to a repair is an
important phenomenon, and to try to create a closed, essentially, company store
where their customers can't be creative anymore, I think Apple is deteriorating
since the times of Steve Jobs. I think they need ... Their leadership has to
open up a bit. I don't think they've solved the security problem at all.
They're just compounding it with more security busy work, more pettifoggery
that really chiefly stops their customers from using their own devices.
George
Gilder: If you make a slight
mistake with your Apple drive, they can't retrieve it for you. If you forget
your special password for your Apple drive, you got to wipe it clean before you
can proceed, and you lose everything you haven't stored at the Apple Cloud.
This whole security model that these companies are pursuing where they try to
create their own little secure walled garden, while leaving all the
intersections between the various separate walled gardens open to hackers to
play, is futile and quixotic and will have to end.
Ed Kless: Agreed. We have about two
minutes left, George. What I do want to ask you, first of all, thank you for
the recommendation on the Brave browser. I've actually started playing
with it myself, and I think I see where it's going, probably not as clearly as
you, but it's pretty fascinating technology. What I wanted to ask is, do you
think that the blockchain or some variant form of it might be a potential
answer for the challenges that we see with voter fraud?
George
Gilder: Yeah. I think voter
fraud ... to the extent that we really can't solve voter fraud with the
existing technologies, I don't think we've got an awful lot of voter fraud in
the United States. Maybe I'm wrong about that. But blockchain is a complex
technology that's being developed along many different tracks at the moment,
and one of the applications is voting, and it’s being used in Estonia and
several other countries, and Singapore wants to use it. There are lots of
experiments going on using blockchains in politics, and we'll see how they turn
out.
Ed Kless: Yeah, no, well, and then
the other side of that question is as security becomes more personal, and we've
got about one minute left, do you think that disrupts
the NSA from their "spying" on us as well?
George
Gilder: Yeah. I don't mind NSA
doing metadata churning or metadata through their computers. Does not threaten
me. FBI agents pounding on my front door or breaking into my garage, threaten
me. I think computer intrusions are sort of benign and necessary in an age
where nuclear weapons can be potentially put in small boxes and deployed.
They're just real terrorist threats that the NSA has to address, and I think
this paranoia about privacy with the NSA is misconceived.
Ed Kless: Interesting. Well, thank
you, George Gilder.
Ed Kless: No, that's okay. Sorry,
we just have to wrap up. We've got about 30 seconds left, and Ron's got to read
the outro. Want to really appreciate you being on the show once again. You're a
fabulous guest, and thanks for handling all my rapid fire
subject changes at the end there. Hopefully you're willing to appear again next
time.
George
Gilder: Oh, I certainly will.
Thank you so much.
Ron Baker: Thank you, George.
George
Gilder: Love your show.
Ron Baker: Thank you.
Ed Kless: Thanks.
Ron Baker: Ed, what's on store for next
week?
Ed Kless: Next week we're on Free-rider
Friday.
Ron Baker: All right. See you in 167
hours.
Ron Baker: This has been The Soul of
Enterprise: Business in the Knowledge Economy, sponsored by Sage, energizing
business builders around the world through the imagination of our people and
the power of technology. Join us next week folks on Friday at 1 p.m. Pacific.
In the meantime, check out thesoulofenterprise.com. We'll post full show notes
with our interview with George Gilder. Also, you can contact Ed or myself at
asktsoe@verasage.com. Thanks for listening, folks. Have a great weekend.
Amazon’s George Gilder Author Page
