Ed and Ron are honored to have our three VeraSage colleagues, and Australian lawyers, on the show for the second time: John Chisholm, Matthew Burgess, and David Wells. We discuss what's happening with Value Pricing in Australia, and peel back the curtain on this November's VeraSage DownUnder Symposium.
A 3rd generation recovering lawyer, for well over a decade now John has been urging lawyers to not only stop billing their services by time but also to burn their timesheets. He works with lawyers & other professionals assisting them with both a mindset change, and the practical implementation of moving towards value based pricing principles to become Firms of the Future instead of firms of the past. John is a Senior Fellow of the VeraSage Institute, Adjunct Professor of Law at La Trobe Law School Fellow of the College of Legal Practice Management and Distinguished Fellow Centre For Legal Innovation. He has written numerous articles, papers and blogs on value based pricing and has presented and spoken to thousands of professionals on the topic in Australasia, USA,UK and Latin America. In 2017 John co founded The Innovim Group with fellow lawyers Liz Harris and David Wells to run Aligned Pricing Programs and assist professionals with their practice and
pricing transformation.
Matthew Burgess founded specialist timeless Australian law firm View in 2014 (see www.viewlegal.com.au). For the previous 17 years, he was a lawyer and partner of one of Australia’s leading independent law firms and in 2002 was one of the firm’s youngest ever partner appointments. In part leveraging off the skills gained from advising a range of successful businesses, Matthew Burgess has been the catalyst in developing a number of innovative legal solutions; including establishing what is widely regarded as Australia’s first virtual law firm. Matthew last filled in a timesheet in 2013, and has been a passionate and vocal advocate for professional service firms to abandon the heritage inputs based time billing business model. In 2017, Matthew’s vision of an integrated fintech and legal solution based on membership pricing (ie subscription) was realised with the joint venture between NowInfinity (see: www.nowinfinity.com.au) and View Legal.
As Managing Partner of Moores Legal, David led the firm's transformation to a value pricing practice, implementing Moores Agreed Pricing (MAP) - negotiating an up front price with clients. MAP is not simply a new pricing model. It represents a whole new business model. This transformation involved renewing or replacing several key systems including Knowledge Management, Performance Management, Project Management and Business Development as well as budgets and reports. Beware! Ditching hourly rates and time recording will necessitate that. There is always risk associated with significant change. Sometimes there are risks that you can't afford not to take. For the outstanding team at Moores with a vision for the goal of long term relationships with clients who are the right fit, this was one such risk.
A Transcript of the Show Follows
Ed Kless
We are very pleased to have three of our wonderful various age colleagues with us. We're going to be discussing value pricing down under as well as the upcoming various age symposium that we've been talking about on the show. And I'm going to introduce these three gentlemen in turn. First, we have john Chisholm is a third generation recovering lawyer. I love that I'm going to ask you a little bit about that john. And he works with lawyers and other professionals and assisting them to change their mind, right and shift away from billing time into value based principles to become a firm of the future. We have Matthew Burgess, who founded a timeless firm in Australia called view legal and he's been doing that for quite some time. I'm going to ask we'll ask him about to tell a story of that and you think they they, they ditch the time sheets in 2013. So it's been five, six foot for the years. And then lastly, but not least Lee we have managing partner of Morris legal David wells who joining us as well. And we are just thrilled to have you guys on the soul of enterprise. So welcome all of you to the soul of enterprise. Again, thank you
Yes, we are going to dispense with our normally when Ron and I have guests on we kind of alternate back and forth. I'll take the first 15 minutes and Ronald take the next 15 minutes but we decided that that's just not going to work with this group because the conversation needs to be a little bit more flowing. So I'm thrilled to have you guys on john as the senior partner of senior partners here I'm going to turn to you first
And and ask so first of all, how's house? How are things down under today?
Unknown Speaker
Well, saying it's 6am or just after 6am. You will be pleased to know though that the world made it to Saturday, the 21st of September.
Unknown Speaker
Things are things uh well down under, I assume when the sun breaks eventually it'll be even nicer. Where Matthew is. I'm in, in in Melbourne in the south of Australia. Matthew is in Queensland. So I assume the sun's already well and truly up in Queensland, Matthew,
Unknown Speaker
absolutely, Mr. Chisholm.
Ed Kless
But that john, just it just talking a little bit about this. So your third generation recovering lawyer, does that mean the to vit to previous generations are also recovering lawyers or are you the only recovering lawyer of the three?
Unknown Speaker
Well, my grandfather I don't think he can say is recovering because he passed away many years ago. My father is definitely not recovering. He's He's in his 90s. I'll have to tell him I told everyone how old he is. And he's still a got a practicing certificate and practicing lawyer. He's still going to the office. Now he doesn't he's, he's he's, he's he's dining room. He does have a works. It works works at home. But you'd be pleased to know he's never ever filled out a timesheet in his life in Rome. No,
Ron Baker
he did it by weight. Right? Only the story way the file after they were done? Well,
Unknown Speaker
he didn't used to. And now I know this sounds really Myron par kettle so but he still does it. He never ever set out a bill with that ringing client first.
Ron Baker
That's brilliant. Actually,
Unknown Speaker
gee, wouldn't that be revolutionary? And he would discuss the matter and discuss the bill and the client was happy. Send it the bill and Clive wasn't maybe
Unknown Speaker
make it bit bit less, but he would never ever send out a bill. So there was no surprises for his class.
Ed Kless
Outstanding. And Matthew, turning to you now just been without timesheets for six years. Is that right?
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. That even that a little bit misleading. Because even before that we were absolutely on the fixed pricing and value pricing trial. But doing it inside a very traditional sort of inverted commas to steal I think one of John's words, big law firms which which product itself on charging keeps it ours all the time. So little bit of a mismatch there for a few years, but but then eventually off in about 2013 never looked back. should add we we gave everyone the choice to continue filling in timesheets, if that's so desired.
Ed Kless
Can you were there any takers for that? Or they
Unknown Speaker
takers? Finally, single person took up that offer? extraordinary.
Ed Kless
Crazy. That's it? I didn't think it must be must be. Yeah, no, they love the time. She's other places. And David is the newest to this crazy model. We want to want to welcome on board here. But how how long have you guys been without timesheets?
Unknown Speaker
So I hadn't realized that our timeline was almost the same as Matthews, we started pricing for value in 2011. But I did allow people to continue filling out the time sheet for a couple of years, we actually turned off the time sheets from practice management system 2013. So that's about the same as Matthews experience. Ironically, a couple of words in our practice the elect to continue filling out time sheets, it made them feel secure. And I could look back at the end of the day, and they could probably try and console themselves that they have actually done something. I'm not sure why they didn't know that they've been doing anything with our time. But that's the way it was. But yeah, we ditched the time sheets in 2013.
Ed Kless
And I just don't want when I last one yesterday, I'm gonna let you take over here. But and I'm going to ask all three of you this, I'm going to do it in reverse order that I did this. Because this is a thing that's really been been percolating here in the US. And that is this a sort of semi resurgence of this notion of well, you can go to value pricing, but we'll let you keep the time she cuz it's really it's it's okay. What what are your thoughts on that? And let's we'll, we'll start with, with David, what do you what do you think about that?
Unknown Speaker
It's a nonsense, it's not okay, you cannot get really good at pricing the venue where you're filling out the timesheet. And so I mentioned this period of two years, during which we allowed people to fill out timesheets after we started pricing, the value, our momentum, in terms of our journey with learning how to do value pricing, well, would have been a lot better if we'd turn off the time sheets. Immediately, I reckon we probably lost about 12 months because of my failure to get wise in relation to that issue right up front.
Ed Kless
Okay, great. Thanks, Matthew, what about your thoughts on that?
Unknown Speaker
What he said, I mean, we all experience and having lived in God breathed it. I mean, I can only assume that people driving that it has a vested interest because they're trying to flog some sort of technology that helps you to track everyone's time. Well, secondly, they never actually done it. Because while it might sound fine in theory and practice, but it's absolutely not the case. So now, I mean, out, we often go back to what we know, when we used to recruit people, and it's a little bit of a one liner. But But unfortunately, it's a bit true, you know, what's the difference between a good lawyer and a bad lawyer. And the reality is that, you know, the bad lawyers make those things last a very long time when they're on time sheets, the good lawyers, even longer. And you say that is that that's the mantra and and the minute you focused on inputs is the minute you can never ever, ever get to a position where you're actually pricing for value and pricing in a way that the customer is at the centerpiece of the holiday Asian
Unknown Speaker
tour. And, john, anything to add to that, I absolutely agree with with David and Matthew, you just can't be half pregnant. It's It's so you keep the time sheets best will in the world. People default to time I see it all the all the time excuse upon with with firms that Yep, one section of their, their firm, they may be genuinely trying to go to at least fixed fees, maybe value pricing, often because perhaps a client's insisted or something like that. But you know, when you still have the the rare model or the compensation model, and the measurements and rewards around time, you're just going to keep continue to get time and get it in spades. And, yeah, it's just so high. And that's it makes it hard for particularly the bigger firms to, to really do that paradigm shift and change is run. Baker has always said and you've said it. It's not a building model change. It's a business model change. And that's what makes it so hard for many firms to
Unknown Speaker
adopted.
Unknown Speaker
Take it wrong.
Ron Baker
Why do you guys think because you're part of innovation in consulting and you help firms move to this model? Why do you think so many consultants are out there, paying lip service to value pricing, but saying at the same time, but you can keep your time sheets that issues a distraction? I don't want to bring that up, because it just fosters a lot of dissent and all of that, and why is that we all know pricing consultants, to the professions that have that line. And I just find that so frustrating. I do believe they're part of the problem. But But why do you think that is?
Unknown Speaker
any of it? David, do you want to go first, before I say anything defamatory?
Unknown Speaker
We were just going to try and define no one. But I do think that they're trying to have their cake and eat it too. I think they're trying to play both sides of the street. And I just think that it's dishonorable in a way. I think that if we profess expertise, we should actually be trying to give our clients guidance about the best way to do stuff. And I think it's it's a false premise that you can practice constructively with clients and build relationships while you filling out the timesheet. And I wish that clients would pay no attention to consultants who actually preach that you can play operate on both sides of the street, it just doesn't work.
Unknown Speaker
Matthew,
Unknown Speaker
john guy, then maybe we he'll be beaten by the break and find anyone.
Unknown Speaker
Whether we get to this time, and I think this has been a big topic on this program that if you start looking at that you're crossing 2.0. So in other words, subscription. I mean, it's just completely untenable that anyone would even remotely think that term sheets are useful in that environment. So I'll stand by my only comment. I think the people providing this either had a vested interest, or have never actually actually been involved in a profitable firm.
Unknown Speaker
That value pricing process.
Unknown Speaker
Can I just say one thing, and I went to find anyone. But yeah, I think it speaks for itself that most of those, if not all of those pricing consultants who preached keep the timesheets actually don't keep timesheets themselves. Exactly.
Ron Baker
Yeah. That's exactly right. Well, we may, we may take that we may discuss that even further, because I just I find the topic absolutely fascinating. Because any firm that has made the transition is Matthew and David, just to test it to, they all say unanimously, that they they should have gotten rid of the time sheet sooner. So I think the empirical evidence is out there. And to say it otherwise is a form of malpractice. But unfortunately, guys, we're up against our break. And we'd like to remind you folks, check out the soul of enterprise. com will probably post the full transcript of our show today with our three Australian lawyers, and also if you'd like to contact Ed or myself, you can do so at asked to so he at Paris h com. Now we want to hear from our sponsors.
Unknown Speaker
All right, you're clear.
Unknown Speaker
You guys should just say anybody that's good.
Unknown Speaker
Like gentlemen, we do a little quick little maintenance. All the guests, if you can make sure your zoom is brought up on your screen and go to the bottom left, you're going to see a little microphone there. Next to the microphone is an arrow. If you click on that arrow, it brings up a small menu, the bottom of that menu, you're going to see audio settings, if you click on that, it's going to open up an actual menu and you will see your speaker settings and your microphone settings. in there, there's going to be a little box that's possibly checked that says automatically adjust volume. Make sure that is not checked. You want that that turned off.
Unknown Speaker
Okay.
Unknown Speaker
He was having trouble just let me know.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, I'm not getting that little box on the bottom left hand screen. Okay, we
Unknown Speaker
do not have a microphone check. plugged in. It might not might not pop up for you. So if you're not getting it at all,
Unknown Speaker
I've got it up yet. It doesn't say I haven't clicked the box that says automatically join audio. Okay.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, just make sure that automatically just is not checked. That's
Unknown Speaker
what we're just just making sure.
Unknown Speaker
Yep. Okay.
Ed Kless
And, and while we're during these breaks will be coming back. But just you know that we do reduce release the entirety of the show as part of the Patreon episode, which includes the stuff from in breaks, so don't say anything.
Ron Baker
You don't want public
Ed Kless
description. It's a closed it's a closed group. But
Ron Baker
yeah, now of course we'd be well defended Ed.
Ed Kless
Yes. Please take us back. Ron. Take us back. Okay. Okay.
Ron Baker
I'm gonna jump to you, David,
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Ron Baker
Welcome back, everybody. We are lawyer it up and an outrageously hourly rate here. So glad it's only lasting an hour. But David, you made a comment about the the effect of no time sheets on team members. And Matthew talked about this to giving people the choice to keep their time sheet and nobody did. But I remember David, we spent a day at your firm, me and john and we got to talk to the team about how they work different as a result of not having the sword of Damocles, you know, the time sheet hanging over their head. And I think it's one of the hardest things to articulate to firms. And I'm just wondering if you can attempt it. Because what I got from that day was just a ton of it's changed our focus from inputs to value. And it allows me to do things that maybe we wouldn't have done in the past for the client more hand holding more Council, whatever it might be, but talk about some of those non quantifiable effects of not having a timesheet culture.
Unknown Speaker
You mentioned the focus on outputs rather than inputs. And that's probably the primary effect. That just was revolutionary for our lawyers that they realized that what was important was,
Unknown Speaker
and that they were going to develop with their client about
Unknown Speaker
fleshing out the clients objectives for the project, how we get to be managed, our people would spend time actually having little celebrations about getting the agreement with the client that our practice was retained to go ahead and deliver the project. And then we get on and actually start delivering after the price agreement was signed, the self esteem of the lawyers in our practice, just rows that it was almost pill. Right. I just can't tell you the difference that it has made to morale in our practice, I didn't realize that that was going to be a byproduct of it wasn't a primary driver for us in, in going down this path of practicing for value. But what a sensational byproduct it's been.
Ron Baker
Yeah, especially since you know, Australia seems to write a lot about the link between being on the hamster wheel of the billable hour and mental illnesses, whether it's depression, alcoholism, suicide. And I just think that that is such a big shift. And it's so hard to quantify. But it's even so hard to sit there and explain even the narrative form until people live through it. Matthew, how would you How would you say it's affected your team? change their focus or the culture?
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I catch driveway us internally, and it's absolutely the case, Sean is that it's taken away this incessant and overriding focus on what's chargeable and flipped our model to what's valuable. And that probably sounds a little bit glib, but in particular, when you then overlay, as you've just touched on mental illness aspect, I mean, that we don't like talking about that too much. Because, you know, there's a lot of science to suggest, the more you talk about it, that the bigger issue becomes the people that are in that space, but the the stats are actually quite horrifying run and the fresh, professional service firms as a whole have mental illness, you know, significantly higher than the general population, lawyers even worse again, and, you know, it's a huge issue and for the industry as a whole to be almost dismissive of that I we found, frankly, by the end of our journey on being time, billers, it was it was morally wrong, from our perspective. And as I said, I don't want to get too high on that. But the reality is, the stats Don't lie. And there you go back to Martin Seligman has been industry a link between an input focused journey and mental health. Oh,
Ron Baker
yeah. And certainly I don't think any of us are arguing the time sheets are the only issue, but it's certainly a large factor. Everything I've read from down there, says that that everybody complains about that hamster wheel. It's just amazing. Yeah,
Unknown Speaker
it is an insider. Of course, it's not the only issue. And it's a very sensitive issue. But the reality is that we we are an obligation to our people, we failed to break that cycle back that had.
Ron Baker
JOHN, I know you consult with a lot of firms and spend a lot of time in front of young lawyers. How do you try and articulate this issue?
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, look, I think
Unknown Speaker
Simon's what David and Messier, have spoken about, it's, the well being is certainly it's stressful enough in any other profession. So the legal professions, adding to that, you know, I've just got to be seen here, I've got to be doing, I've got to fill out my time sheets, the way, you know, the traditional firm, or the old law, I got the old law, leveraging people by time by hourly rate is, the more money they make is, the more they are on the hamster wheel. And, you know, with young lawyers, and we all know, we know many lawyers who have left the profession for principally now the reason that they just don't don't want to feel that time sheets, they just don't want to be there for the sake of it is is Matthew said they can find, you know, being a value to an organization, even thank goodness, there's opportunities in in law firms like Matthews and David's and others out there. But until recent times, they wasn't for many of those lawyers that were feeling just just trapped by the business model. And they have to either leave the profession, perhaps going house, now, thank goodness, there's more opportunities where they can, you know, be really creative, really look at the outputs and results and adding value to, you know, to their clients, to their customers, without just looking at having just put all the time at the office, which is still unfortunately, run, as I spoke about earlier on, you know, most of the firms just can't change that measurement or and reward system that they have in place. And it's it's really hard. And until that changes, it is a chicken and egg situation, it's going to be really hard for them to not just truly value price, but to do all those things that that Matthew and David talk about.
Ed Kless
Yeah, yeah. Well, I'm going to add a lighten up a little bit. But my, my daughter was just in a in a production of the desert. He's frozen. And you know, as the song goes, we're gonna let it go. The past is in the past, right? So we're gonna we're gonna move, we're gonna let it go. And I will I would I like to turn our attention to is what Ron has dubbed value pricing two point O, which is this whole subscription model. And I understand from Ron Matthew, that this is something that you have started to dabble in a little bit, maybe David and john as well. I just I just know that he specifically talked about you. So what are your thoughts on this whole thing? You've heard Ron and I talk a lot about this subscription based model? What do you think it means for lawyers specifically, and we let's narrow the focus will but
Unknown Speaker
yeah, absolutely, Ed. And I think from our perspective,
Unknown Speaker
you know, value pricing, throw away out implementing value pricing, it's a useless publication.
Ed Kless
So yesterday,
Unknown Speaker
it's something controversial.
Unknown Speaker
We're trailblazers, Ed, and I
Unknown Speaker
know you all, you gotta grab it, he is gonna throw it out. Come on.
Unknown Speaker
It is totally I mean, value pricing, moving off time sheets, and value pricing just totally changed our business model. Absolutely. We feel that subscription is actually going to change our lives as well, it is unbelievable. We started with baby steps, we were really trying to provide a subscription model to access some of our intellectual property, whether it be books, or audio books, or podcasts, whatever it might be. We've now iterating the bad at really quite significant levels into actual legal solutions, particularly product or solutions. So you know, in the US, for example, a Legal Zoom style solution on a subscription model, or you can aid and, you know, you talk about that some of those other businesses are growing, it is exponential growth we're seeing that's why it's like it's unbelievable, the guys in that subscription model. And the beauty, as the two of us speak about it so regularly is that it is interesting, highly customer centric. If you're not delivering every single day, every single week. I mean, the subscription gets turned off. Like it's a pretty, pretty blunt piece of feedback that just go straight to the hottie business models. So we were in state this weekend, and we were only going to get data.
Ed Kless
Well, that's that's great. And what are there anything that you're seeing that that has surprised you initially out of the gate with it?
Unknown Speaker
There's been a few things. I think, from our perspective, the biggest surprise has been how easy it is to create subscription across a legal product. Because I think when we initially looked at it, we thought I know that you know, of course, if you're if you're selling software, of course software as a service as subscription yet no brainer, go for it. We could never do that in the law. Whereas once we've actually peeled away that initial resistance, we actually feel was as foolish as we feel today about time sheets, we we actually feel as foolish that is being back dismissive of subscription and in the legal space.
Ed Kless
And, David, what about you? Have you done a dabbling in subscription or thinking about it?
Unknown Speaker
We certainly have, we don't actually call it subscription. But I think that to the extent that professionals have retainers with their clients, it's a subscription model. And Matthew might be a little bit further down the track than we are at Moore's in relation to subscription. We're reasonably high touch practice, doing high value work for clients who, certainly in the private cloud area had always repeat clients, we hope that they will be as a result of good experience, but I think it does lend itself more to repeat clients. And we've had some outstanding results with some of our organizational clients that have become very loyal. And ironically, what we do with subscription model for the retainer is we value price that arrangement before the retainer, so we would give the client who wants to pay for a year's worth of legal services from our lawyers, three options about how they might like to structure that arrangement over the year.
Unknown Speaker
And
Unknown Speaker
it's it's a pretty heavy combination. Actually. We had one of our boys, Hugh Watson, whom you know it because he was at the conference in Texas two years ago. He went on holidays, couple of months ago, he was away for two weeks of the month. And I was astounded. He was still one of our top billing lawyers for even though he wasn't present. Now, I know he had his phone with me was doing a little bit of work while he was away, but he blitzed everybody else. And I won't tell you how much he believed in that. But it was very, very encouraging for him and for me,
Ed Kless
right the power the power of of making money as you sleep with the subscription model, but we are on vacation, and we're up against our next break want to remind you that in order to get ahold of Ron or me, you can send an email to ask TSOE at various age com, of course, the website is the soul of enterprise where you can get show notes as well as previous to upcoming shows. And we're going to talk about in an upcoming same segment about the various age down under conference, if you want more information about that go to either the soul of enterprise com slash VDU or their SH com slash VDU. And that will be what will take you to the site where there's all of the information and links to how to get registered for that conference. But right now, a word from our sponsor.
Unknown Speaker
All right, you're clear.
Ed Kless
And yeah, no really good. And what coming back for on this run, if I could I just want to asked john in his work with with the talking about subscription to other people, if he's seeing the same thing that we're seeing, which is, for some reason, subscription resonates a lot faster and quicker. Right then did value pricing. So I don't know if that's your but I don't answer now. Because save your hands.
Ron Baker
Right, right. JOHN, I do want to ask you to I because you might have sent it to me or maybe I sent it to you. I forget there's so much stuff going back and forth between us all but there was a great ABA article, profiling all these lawyers. Now most of them were sole proprietors that were using some form of subscription. I believe they were all USA base. I don't remember if there were any Ozzy's in there, but wanted to see, you know, if you're seeing any movement in that area amongst Australian lawyers, especially on the small end,
Unknown Speaker
yep. And it when you say people get it quicker, is that they? Are they then taking action to implement or it's more that they just say more open to have a discussion?
Ed Kless
Oh, no, they're not actually. They can just
Ron Baker
get their mind around it easier. More.
Unknown Speaker
It's probably what it's probably worth also drilling down a bit. Is there a difference between coming back?
Ed Kless
Okay. Yep, bring it back.
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Ed Kless
and back on the soul of enterprise and run, and I often joke that this is the, quote, fastest hour of our week. But I gotta tell you, this is flying by even more quickly. And now I understand why at various age events, we, you know, end up at four o'clock in the morning and thinking, Oh, is it bedtime? I don't like that way. And now I'm beginning to understand what's going on there. JOHN, I want to turn to you and just pick up on the theme that we left in the last segment. And that is this notion of subscription based pricing and in your work with talking to firms and speaking to them. One of the things that Ron and I are finding it with subscription is that the concept resonates a lot more quickly than did value pricing when we first started talking about it. I don't know why this is maybe it's because people subscribe to other stuff in their lives. And that that's the the framework that they have. But are you finding that as well that people wrap their mind around it a little bit quicker?
Unknown Speaker
it? I'd love to say yes. But I think they do understand, they do understand the concept. They actually actually get you can relate to subscription models everywhere in our business and personal lives and what have you. And I think for law firms, it's still if they're doing anything major, in that case of the platform, netease firms and a couple of others, it's still down the retainer model. They do understand that and all the benefits that that that that come with that. But, you know, actually doing it, you know, getting to what we would call value pricing. 2.0 is still really hard. I haven't seen some of the accounting firms. Some of the bookkeepers and all that tend to be doing it more, I have to say, in my experience, at least here in Australia, I think it will,
Unknown Speaker
you know, will take off
Unknown Speaker
quicker because you know, value pricing still has that I don't know what it is, it's just seems threatening or whatever too many firms yet talking about retainers and subscription. They do understand, but I still think there's a huge gap. I don't know whether David or Matthew would agree with this between actually understanding it and then being able to implement it within their current business model within their current measurement and reward structures is still a challenge for for many firms. Some of them have got separate areas, or they've purchased here, at least here in Australia, they've purchased some some business, which may be more in the technology space. Certainly, Matthew, the accounting firms have done it here. And they're going heading down the subscription model quicker in in, in that part of their practice.
Unknown Speaker
Oh, okay. Thanks, Ed.
Ron Baker
You guys, you know, it's obvious to me, it's been obvious to me since I made my first trip to Australia in 2000, that Australia punches far above its weight in terms of innovation. And you the last time you guys were on collectively was back in February 2016. And we were talking about the implications of Daniel Susskind book, the future of the professions Daniel and Richard test. And he's got a new book coming out, by the way called the end of work. And I just wanted to ask the three of you. And David, I'll start with you. What other types of innovations Do you see in law firms in Australia that are going on besides value pricing to or even value pricing? One? Oh, do you see a lot of artificial intelligence or machine learning or other types of innovation, that you've been intrigued by or impressed by?
Unknown Speaker
Certainly a wave of innovation with technology. Probably a bit of a skeptic that the technical obstacle innovation is actually go to deliver sustainable benefits, because everybody catches up. Forcing was in innovation. And of course, when everybody started out, so it wasn't really something that was delivering any sustainable advantage to affirm. I think that one of the real ways that practices can innovate effectively is in relation to their business model. And if they actually start narrowing their focus and building a depth of expert expertise the way that Tim at.
Ron Baker
David, you're cutting out there. Why don't you
Unknown Speaker
actually end
Ron Baker
up your cut now, David? Yeah, Matthew, go ahead. Thanks, you
Unknown Speaker
should actually call, I don't know if that comes up on the screen. For those watching at home, I should call it out on how quickly this goes. I'm actually struggling big time today. And because I only have to listen to you guys on double time.
Ron Baker
That's funny, Texas, you know, so it's always New York actually talks really fast.
Unknown Speaker
I'm going to do an gratuitous plug for various sites down under, I don't know if this is the right time. And
Unknown Speaker
I disagree a little bit with David, in terms of how much the subscription model and how much innovation could be coming through. And maybe it's it's just saying the same thing that a different perspective, from LL and I think the interpreter, the digital disruption into play in the legal space, I don't think anyone in the room currently can can really see where that's going, we've had a bit of an insight on this. In terms of the joint venture with done with a FinTech company here in AWS, you know, it's the old is at the time quite a lot. You don't need to be worried about the second best swordsman in the forest, you need to be worried about the some of the comes in from the side and just does not play by the rules at all. So Ron, to actually answer your question, I think the number of solo printers just seems to be overwhelming at the moment, the ability to just walk out of big law and set up a really profitable, interesting value pricing practice, within a week, has become all encompassing, was saying like just hugely talented people coming out of the machine and doing their own thing. And when you have hugely talented people doing that, the innovation becomes over, you know, just becomes unbelievably compelling. So from our perspective, I think, while they did disruption does have the potential to democratize us all. If you're like apple, and that's certainly the model we're trying to build. And you can build an ecosystem that it becomes almost impossible for people to change ships on, I think what's actually happening potentially, is that there's businesses being built that people turn around in I don't know how long, maybe three, maybe five years member? RR that's what you were doing. All right. And, and yet, we can't join that game, because we didn't get on the ship at the right time. So we might be wrong, that, that maybe that's part of the discussion that will be having it there, essentially and under.
Unknown Speaker
That's awesome. JOHN, how about you?
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, look, I I agree with that, I think one of the even the move to value pricing move to the sort of models that that Matthews talked about, it's being bottom up driven, have to say it, at least in terms of sighs and numbers. And, you know, the work that we're doing through the Innovation Group is mainly with, you know, solo practitioners, entrepreneurs, smaller firms that just felt trapped refugees from old Laurel or big law, but they can they can utilize technology to get to, you know, where they want to go, it's not the driver, but they utilizing that, but that just allows them to do so much, much more quickly than what you could in my day, or, or, you know, even five years ago, and I think I think that will only exponentially increase. I think it's exciting from you know, from from that point of view. And runners, you've always said that those that have the most to lose will be the last change. And I think, you know, big law old law, you will be the last to change. And look, let's be frank about it for many still, particularly at the beginning to tan. They, you know, doing quite well financially, at least some of those people in those firms are doing quite well financially and they're not about to change the business model anytime soon.
Unknown Speaker
So I really do think it's bottom up.
Unknown Speaker
driven and, you know, we should be it's just a plug for Australia, but quite proud of some of the technological advances we're we're making here, and some of it, it's been exported to your country and others around the world. But at the end of the day, it's it's, it's it's the mindset, it's the that's what's really driving that. And that you can't, you know, you can't release the entrepreneurship in those sort of people if they're part of the big old little structure, I don't think anyway.
Ron Baker
Right, right. It's another Yep, sorry. No, no, I was just going to say that it's too bad because these big firms they have the resources and if they ever did step up and attempt to do this value pricing one or two Oh, they would they would be great at it.
Unknown Speaker
I look, I don't know whether I'm gonna be around to see it. But one day one of those firms will do it whether the penny drops or it's you know, they get to the tipping point and we our profession, I have to say in the main of sort of lemmings and you you watch when one of the big firms do it may not be a law firm just just watch the others follow we see it in so many other areas of what what they do but until then, I think you know, firms like David Matthews and other firms that you know we know and work with certainly here in Australia they're they're raping the rewards not just the financial rewards but the you know, the self satisfaction the self esteem rewards, you know, that first mover advantage and justifiably they should they've been courageous, they've they've, they've taken you know, a leap of faith to some degree you know, and made the paradigm shift and well, long may that continue
Unknown Speaker
running might be blind arrogance, it's Matthew jumping in again, but I and we spent a lot of time consulting in inverted commas or chatting to some of these bigger firms to try to help them because we we believe that it's actually that's for everyone that has just had if we can all rise at its best for everyone. It's pretty easy litmus test though. Because if you casually dropping okay and how do you track what you're doing? And without missing a beat like oh, yeah, well, we all still fill in time shades so pretty short discussion? Yeah. Not real concerned about what you guys are going to be doing anytime soon.
Ron Baker
Yeah, well, Matthew I think the first time we met in person bin you were in one of those big firms correct you probably thought I was crazy
Unknown Speaker
it changed my life Ron you've heard me share that story i mean i i actually I my life to you and your vision because of you I did I could not get it I'd read for the future I and I could not join the dots on that sitting with you that day was enough it was the last piece in the puzzle for me to to actually get with the program
Ron Baker
well and on that because I
Ed Kless
was gonna say it's good enough with the get get a room guys get it
Unknown Speaker
wasn't obvious it was writing off the script was
Ed Kless
all good. It's all good. But we're gonna we're gonna take a take our break. Now I want to remind you, you can get ahold of Ron or me the email addresses asks he so he at various age calm, of course, we are out on Twitter. So hashtag, ask ESOP as well as the handle at to you. So if you want to contact us, last thing I would ask that you do is to put your rate your podcast equipment on pause right now, and run out and rate the show. And if you really want to ingratiate yourself toward us write a review and we will be happy to read that on the air. But right now a word from our sponsor and my employer, sage.
Unknown Speaker
and clear.
Ron Baker
Thanks, Matthew, you said that just about the way I wrote it for you.
Unknown Speaker
Easy to see when it's
Ed Kless
David can vividly remember David, I don't know if you see but there's a if you can get to the chat window I sent sent you a link that if you can probably click on that link and find an Australian number and call in on the phone because your connection is very shaky. So which is why we had to cut you out the last time. So
Ron Baker
yeah, I'm thinking that dish we dropped the video. I don't know.
Ed Kless
It's not our video. It's his connections connection.
Ron Baker
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yep.
Unknown Speaker
Good. CNVN. JOHN.
Unknown Speaker
Thank you. Thank you.
Unknown Speaker
Thank you. I see. We don't have it.
Unknown Speaker
We're in the middle of Brisbane and we don't have it.
Ed Kless
And Josh, Josh, I'm not didn't see any countdown for me last time was that
Unknown Speaker
by design. I was trying to see if I could figure out his thing. And you had already started going to break by the time I realized we're supposed to go
Ron Baker
Okay. Okay. Um, I was looking forward to I was like, wait a minute.
Ed Kless
Yeah. Professional.
Ron Baker
BDU. All all this segment? I think we should. Yes,
Ed Kless
yes. Absolutely. Okay, so break, bring us back and take us there.
Unknown Speaker
Okay. If you're ever looking for new topics, and I reckon palantir your bookshelf would be you can fill out a few shows. Just doing that. That is an awesome show.
Ed Kless
So I would I aspire I aspire to john setup, which is with the wind behind this. I've already decided that in retirement, the bookshelf will be replaced by the john Chisholm. Wine Rack.
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Ron Baker
Welcome back, everybody. We are lawyer it up today on the soul of enterprise. And in the last segment, gentlemen, let's talk about the barest age down under symposium. symposium as a very specific word I'll let I'll let Ed describe that but but john, what what are the plans? pull back the curtain for us?
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, well, we got two great days. We're in fact, there's two events. There's the symposium which is being held in July, which is about hundred 80 kilometers from Melbourne. So two wonderful days you'll be surprised and know they'll also be some wine consumed at some stage Australian Australian wine. But now with with got your we're going to be talking about positioning and Ron and Ed, we all know you can't separate pricing from you know, positioning your practice, we're certainly going to be spending, you know, a fair bit of time talking about the subscription, business model. And behavioral economics and heuristics. Certainly in the no no fun group. David, listen, I doing a lot of work around that area and just have, you know, we all know, humans do not usually make rational decisions. So what's the impact of that on, you know, firms marketing firms pricing and the value they can deliver to their customers. IIN technology, after action reviews just had that is really transforming firms, and some talking about strategic TG cos transformation. So yeah, it's going to be an you know, those that have been to the symposium, the various age symposiums before, know that just things take off a little bit, a lot of other stuff that will be talked about, I'm really looking forward to it. We've got really good numbers, we could still use a few more that come this, there's still some seats available. And but prior to that, so that's on the 14th and 15th of November. Prior to that there's a one day workshop called transforming your firm, which is Liz Harris, David wells, and myself and Kirk Bowman from out of value. So we're running a full day workshop in Melbourne on the 12th of November. So it's going to be a big, big week. But a great way, Matthew and his team is Danny. And so looking forward to it. And I certainly am. And I am and I appreciate the support from the various age founders and follows fellows. So yeah, I don't know, David, messy your insights into it, if I left anything out?
Unknown Speaker
Well, I hope you can still hear me, gentlemen.
Unknown Speaker
Yes, you can.
Unknown Speaker
It's going to be a wonderful, wonderful gathering. I'm looking forward to meeting lots of new friends who are coming from far and wide, as well as old friends from North America and the UK. And the the Australasian contingent, is extremely excited about it. I've got probably a dozen people from the most practice who are coming. And there are people from other value pricing practices, such as hive legal and the people who have been in the innovation, align pricing program yourself excited about coming along as well and meeting luminaries
Unknown Speaker
like summary john and and David as well. I think the only two things are there. It's unbelievable what can happen when you get super smart people and I'm excluding myself from that but super smart people in a very Monday night. People talk about that there is a headache and it starts from normally within about 20 minutes in and does not stop for the 40 days It is unbelievable you every time I've got more value out of this conference symposium then then anything I go to in the in the entirety of the previous years. So I cannot understate how important it is to our business. It may feel a little bit cultish. But it's a good kind of cold. And it's the kind of cold you want to be part of. And the reason for that, I think ultimately is to person people are just unbelievably generous. Like it's just as I said, I don't know what why news you guys serve up. But there's just something in that. And that means it's everyone's there to say everyone lift it up and the generosity is everybody happy. So I'm counting down the sleeps.
Ron Baker
Awesome. And tell the truth what symposium me what do we really do at this thing.
Ed Kless
It's funny that you mentioned that run the word symposium is Greek for to drink together. In ancient Greece for them, and they had these gatherings of all of the intellectuals, the they would you know, be serving some wine. And my favorite part of this story is that there's a head of the the symposium who's known as the symposium mark. That's right was head of so symposia. So I think john, your appointed the symposium and the symposium because job was not only to keep things on time and keep things moving, right, but also keep the level of alcohol right at the right level to maintain the flow. Right. So that and and then you know, what they would do is they would at the time, mix water and wine together. So that's, you know, that was that's the deal.
Unknown Speaker
It Thank you. I,
Unknown Speaker
you know, it's my birthday this week, at last I found my calling.
Ed Kless
Yeah, you can know, add some Posey arc symposium to your
Unknown Speaker
Good, good.
Ron Baker
It's just trying to deplete all that wind behind you, john.
Unknown Speaker
Trying to cut into that, well, though, there will be plenty of that. But his message says I show you the various he said I will not be solely attributed to Australian wine, it may help bet it is because of the stimulating discussion. And I can only, you know, up into four, five or six of these now and just learn so much. And that is Matthew said the generosity that should you know, by the likes of you and others. And you know, we we all learned so much. And those that even come for the first time and think that, you know they're going to be you know, all we've all seen how they've added value to symposiums in the in the in the past. And yeah, I think it's wonderful. And, you know, the return the people that are coming that have been been before but David and messy said just it's very exciting. And there are a lot of, you know, a lot of professionals, not just lawyers, I have to say that coming and not just from Australia, but we've got the US we got the UK. We've got the Middle East. We've got Russia, we've got from Amsterdam. Yes. It's, it's terrific.
Ed Kless
So let me amazing time. Yeah. And one of the things that I just love about it, like you said, john is is the organic nature of it. And every time there's going to be somebody who we haven't met before, give this knock your socks off presentation. That might not be the best presentation from a presentation standpoint, but has such rich content that you're just blown away. So anyway, well, our hour is already up. So I'm glad with the time we get stop your watches, gentlemen, you can stop to fill out your time sheet one hour, but want to invite you guys to stay on if you can for we're going to record a little bit of a bonus episode. But we have to wrap things up here on voice America. So Ron, what do we got coming up next week?
Ron Baker
Next weekend. We got free writer Friday for the month of September.
Ed Kless
All right, awesome. I'll see you in 167 hours.
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